[RD] War in Gaza News: Pas de Deux

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: This is not a place to discuss other posters

 

[Farm Boy]

Sarin, Voidwalkin, Ordnael, EnglishEdward, Klaus Hergebwjsisnab, Yeekim, others I'm forgetting

Thank you.

I'm not smart enough to figure out what we're saying while we're pretending we're too polite to be acting the way we're acting.

 

[Lexicus]

This claim of Hamas as some kind of Palestinian defense force would land much better if they didn't have a charter calling for Israel's explicit destruction.

They adopted a charter in 2017 that calls for a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders.

Leaving that (and plenty of other statements by Hamas leaders indicating a willingness by Hamas in the 2010s to negotiate with and de facto recognize Israel) aside, the double standard is absurd. The destruction of Israel, a colonial entity that has been terrorizing and killing Palestinian from the very first moment of its existence; is Palestinian self-defense the same way that Ukraine destroying the Luhansk People's Republic is self-defense.

Specifically, the displacement occurred seventy five years ago, and major Hamas leaders still called for average Palestinians to go Rwanda with it, like, last year.

The displacement of Palestinians has been a continuous process lasting close to 100 years. The PLO recognized Israel unconditionally in 1993 and got nothing in return except continued displacement of Palestinians in the West Bank and east Jerusalem, a major factor leading to the rise of Hamas as the strongest resistance faction.

It is also interesting that the various calls by Israeli politicians and rabbis, also going back decades, to "go Rwanda with it" don't seem to count against Israel. Neither do well-documented genocidal actions by the IDF such as systematically shooting children in the head and chest. No, "violence" (whether rhetorical or actual) is something that only counts against the Palestinians. There is an obvious reason for this double standard.

 

[EnglishEdward]

A number of posters seem to believe that the Israel-Palestine conflict began on October 7, 2023

Who?

Sarin, Voidwalkin, Ordnael, EnglishEdward, Klaus Hergebwjsisnab, Yeekim, others I'm forgetting

What a strawman !

I have never stated that the Israel-Palestine conflict began on October 7, 2023



Now as to the future.

I reckon that the truce will last until the last of the hostages and prisoners are released.

And then the horror show will restart.

 

[Voidwalkin]

"justification" and "Palestinian defense force" are completely separate terms, and the former has nothing to do with any charter Hamas may have.

Like, Israel funded them in the past. What good is raising their charter? Didn't stop Israel funding them!

Have you perused any of the news shared on the past couple of pages?

Let's cut to the chase.

I believe that the destruction of Israel and displacement of its current inhabitants is core to the Hamas cause, as they imagine it, and it enjoys wide sympathy in Gaza and the WB. Outside onlookers try to downplay this, but it seems pretty clear to me, via things like the Hamas charter and the statements of its leaders.

I also believe that time past since initial displacement leaves this claim very weak, and retention of that element makes their cause deeply immoral and candidly, dumb. They've neither the means to achieve that goal, nor will they command the international support necessary to pressure Israel into much of anything, because its morality is just that dubious.

 

[Gorbles]

I believe that the destruction of Israel and displacement of its current inhabitants is core to the Hamas cause, as they imagine it, and it enjoys wide sympathy in Gaza and the WB. Outside onlookers try to downplay this, but it seems pretty clear to me, via things like the Hamas charter and the statements of its leaders.

Israel's cause appears to require the utter destruction and depopulation of Gaza (and the West Bank, and southern Lebanon, and parts of Syria). They have openly talked about how orders were given to kill their own civilians (and then blamed Hamas for every death).

Nobody is downplaying anything on Hamas' side. Lexicus pointing out that the rationale you provided cuts both ways is nothing more than pointing it out. You can of course read into it however you want (and in the event Lexi adds more of his perspective, use that as you will).

 

[Voidwalkin]

Leaving that (and plenty of other statements by Hamas leaders indicating a willingness by Hamas in the 2010s to negotiate with and de facto recognize Israel) aside, the double standard is absurd. The destruction of Israel, a colonial entity that has been terrorizing and killing Palestinian from the very first moment of its existence; is Palestinian self-defense the same way that Ukraine destroying the Luhansk People's Republic is self-defense.

The last bit is an equivalency so false I'm surprised there's been an attempt to make it. Most obviously, Israel was established almost a century ago, the other less than five, only the most outstanding difference amongst many.

It really cuts straight to the core of our disagreement, though. I'm not going to claim one man, who hasn't lived in a place for 75 years has more claim than one who has. In fact, I'm quite content to say the latter group have no claim, much as the Germans displaced after WW2 have no claim to historic East Prussia.

There's not much point to discussing it much further, because it's always gonna come back to that split. You'll think I have double standards, and rest assured, it's mutual, I think you do, too.

 

[Lexicus]

In fact, I'm quite content to say the latter group have no claim, much as the Germans displaced after WW2 have no claim to historic East Prussia.

But European Jews displaced from Palestine for 1,900 years have a claim. Interesting.

 

[Zardnaar]

A number of posters seem to believe that the Israel-Palestine conflict began on October 7, 2023

Current round did.

Did Hamas think they could win and what were their goals? They knew Israel would respond and in an urban environment their own people would die.

My conclusion is they expected an Israeli response and deliberate used their own people as human shields.

Only logical conclusion from their point of view is they kill some Israel's, provoke a response, get some Palestinians killed. Use it for PR purposes (look how mean Israel is). Take hostages cease fire after a few weeks trade hostages. Spin PR

That's the only goal I can think of. Israel's response though was total war. They FAFO. Ultimately the consequences for Oct 7th purely on Hamas. All the dead Palestinians are on them. They chose to use dead Palestinians as PR.

They're just as stupid as Japan 1941 or Germany in 1939.

 

[Zardnaar]

But European Jews displaced from Palestine for 1,900 years have a claim. Interesting.

Ultimately they won. If Hamas won after Oct7 the shoe would be on the other foot.

We"ve seen what happens to Jews in surrounding lands who weren't actually involved in said conflict. There's none left.

Hamas wanted to be the ones doing the kicking. FAFO.

 

[banzay13]

Ok. Israel won Arabs wars. Arabs learn the lesson. They feel themselves strong. And they push limits. Great Israil on sight. God bless America.
International law? Didn't hear about it. We have nukes and 4 careers with support fleet to handle with all enemy's. Simple.
Keep pushing, till all Palestinians gone. No-brainer. Since where is no international law. Holy land, you know)

 

[Birdjaguar]

Ok. Israel won Arabs wars. Arabs learn the lesson. They feel themselves strong. And they push limits. Great Israil on sight. God bless America.
International law? Didn't hear about it. We have nukes and 4 careers with support fleet to handle with all enemy's. Simple.
Keep pushing, till all Palestinians gone. No-brainer. Since where is no international law. Holy land, you know)

If the US had stopped supporting Israel a year or so ago, how would things be different in Gaza today?

 

[Yeekim]

But European Jews displaced from Palestine for 1,900 years have a claim. Interesting.

1) The Jews who lived in Palestine before Israel was created had/have a claim.
2) Who they invite or accept to join them in their state is up to them.

 

[banzay13]

If the US had stopped supporting Israel a year or so ago, how would things be different in Gaza today?

Israeli doesn't have much own production of bombs, aa-missles (even just this could stop this war. Hamas and Iranian rockets could reach a lot of targets, if Israil was short on aa missle) , and many others military things. And stock are Ussualy deply at high actions combats.
And of coz political support. Imagine ICC, what could do something. Or public opinion (times now, not like late 60x).

 

[Lexicus]

If the US had stopped supporting Israel a year or so ago, how would things be different in Gaza today?

Less destruction, less death

 

[Sarin]

Sarin, Voidwalkin, Ordnael, EnglishEdward, Klaus Hergebwjsisnab, Yeekim, others I'm forgetting

You shouldn't talk about things you don't know about.

I've made my position clear several times in these threads. The conflict began before 2003, even before 1948, and the cycle of violence will continue until on either side, some kind of leadership arises that will be willing to break out of it and try to make some sort of mutually acceptable peace, or one side annihilates the other. Since neither current Israeli government not Hamas are willing to compromise in their genocidal intentions, supporting either one is supporting endless war.

And yet, some people, including you, got into their heads that because I do not support Hamas, I must be some kind of closet zionist.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: Posts removed

 

[Voidwalkin]

But European Jews displaced from Palestine for 1,900 years have a claim. Interesting.

Some of them just bought it, which is about as fair an exchange as humans can do. Those that did kinda do have a real claim.

Many were displaced themselves, to Israel, from other parts of the ME, without much choice in the matter.

Those that displaced Palestinians, en masse and at scale by force, in the famous war, have little justification for it beyond "it's war". Realistically, the side that lost probably intended similar displacement for the eventual winners, but got crushed. That's war, I guess.

Those who did that displacing with little justification are dead now, btw. Those that live there now have a claim to it purely by time spent in direct continuity of inhabitatation, regardless of the circumstances of acquisition. I'm gonna continue to remain to have deep issues with any movement that attempts to "remedy" a historical injustice by committing another approximately equivalent one, against roughly five million people who just happened to be born where one occurred in a past era.

 

[Voidwalkin]

If the US had stopped supporting Israel a year or so ago, how would things be different in Gaza today?

Realistically, I think they'd have switched from using smart bombs to dumb ones, and relied more heavily on infantry.

The end result would be something similar, they'd just have incurred more casualties, and probably create more casualties, too. They had such intel infiltration that finding and attacking all whom they wanted was really just a question of how.

They were gonna get the leadership, either on the first try with precision weaponry, or the third, with good old artillery followed up by ground assault.

 

[Gorbles]

Those who did that displacing with little justification are dead now, btw.

Seems unlikely, considering that survivors still existed the time of this piece from 2023:

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