[RD] War in Gaza News: Pas de Deux

I'm hesitant to discuss the broader Israel-Palestine issues because it had little to do with the Gaza War topic(s) at hand. And frankly I think it's boring to see the same armchair stuff rehashed here, in what is otherwise a topic about a terror attack and the response to that.
If anyone thinks that's cowardly or whatever, meh. Just be sure to know I don't have a solution to the debate either.

There was a topic about the larger conflict here some time ago but it got locked for whatever reason.

If the US had stopped supporting Israel a year or so ago, how would things be different in Gaza today?
Honestly I'm guessing it'd be even worse. Israel would probably interpret it as having nothing left to lose.
You don't isolate a nation when its citizens have been taken hostage...Or, it wouldn't be prudent at least.
 
I don't think we read that the same way.

But that's helpful to think about.
 
I don't think we read that the same way.

But that's helpful to think about.

It's like saying that the broad German-Soviet conflict has nothing to do with the battle of Stalingrad. It's not even wrong, it's subrational antithought.

You can see evidence of this sort of thinking all over the place in this thread, a refusal to recognize patterns, a kind of implicit denial that the past weighs on the present and that the present is the future's past.

At least Zardnaar is open in saying "to the victor, the spoils!" All one can really say to that is "eat lead", but it's honest.
 
Not everyone likes saying what Zard is willing to say, it doesn't earn you friends and is pretty clearly true. And true. And true. And true. And you can keep adding more of those for the more years you've lived.

If there is anywhere on earth that Satan rests comfortably, odds are good it is in the "holy lands."
 
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Not everyone likes saying what Zard is willing to say, it doesn't earn you friends and is pretty clearly true. And true. And true. And true. And you can keep adding more of those for the more years you've lived.

If there is anywhere on earth that Satan rests comfortably, odds are good it is in the "holy lands."

Doesn't help Hamas is a tool of Iran whose been working with Russia and China.
 
Doesn't help Hamas is a tool of Iran whose been working with Russia and China.
It shows, too.

Ardent leftists act like the Soviets are still around, whispering about a secular, anti-colonialist struggle in their ears. Not so anymore. It's IRGC fanatics, and the "cause" appears to grow more religious in nature by the year, which is perhaps unsurprising.

I really don't think this war would've happened if the USSR were still around and of any weight. Pitching the ideas Sinwar did to his IRGC handlers would've been dismissed by them as lunacy, but crazy Iran happens to like wildly reckless and stupid violence against Jewish people.
 
iran was always more rational as a theocracy than the ongoing Israeli theocracy . Still is . October 7 the 50th anniversary came out that way because Hamas took all the routes offered at them at once . Reorganizing the Left is a cool thing and very necessary but let's keep down the other propaganda .
 
It's like saying that the broad German-Soviet conflict has nothing to do with the battle of Stalingrad. It's not even wrong, it's subrational antithought.

You can see evidence of this sort of thinking all over the place in this thread, a refusal to recognize patterns, a kind of implicit denial that the past weighs on the present and that the present is the future's past.

At least Zardnaar is open in saying "to the victor, the spoils!" All one can really say to that is "eat lead", but it's honest.
Maybe the more exact parallel would be the Finnish Winter War within World War 2: the Soviets had a general concern about Nazism, but it didn't contain Stalin from trying to win some territory for himself in the process.
And about resistance, there was a German Resistance to Hitler, and yes they're heroes today, but did they really count for much...? How much space in the annals of history do they get compared to the Allies?

To bring this to the present--as I remember saying somewhere to Bony Duck--I'm sure there are voices in Palestine who really do care about anti-colonialism; I just think they pale in comparison to the number of truly antisemitic ones.
Or, at least, the Hamas leadership [that is: the people who run Gaza whether we like it or not] doesn't sound particularly interested in hearing them, that I ever saw it reflected in the news articles posted here.
So that's why I think they're separate topics.
 
It is also interesting that the various calls by Israeli politicians and rabbis, also going back decades, to "go Rwanda with it" don't seem to count against Israel.
This is a bit off topic, but it is interesting with Rwanda that in modern history there are three separate instances of ethnically or politically motivated mass killings we could reference.
The first, in 1959, is the "Social Revolution". The Social Revolution came about largely because Belgium, aware it had only a limited time left to rule in Rwanda, decided to swap their support from the Tutsi monarchy to the Hutu "peasants". (The strict Hutu/Tutsi divide imposed by the Belgians had little to no correlation to how the Tutsi/Hutu divide actually worked in pre-colonial Rwanda.) As a result of the Social Revolution and the clampdown on Tutsis in higher economic, political, or social positions, a few hundred thousands fed to neighboring countries. The Hutu political apparatus became concentrated in the MRND political party and relation between Hutu and Tutsi reached ended up in the state a lot of majority/minority relations end up in - the Hutu elite controlled the good jobs and imposed caps on the number of Tutsis able to enter higher education, while also systematically underfunding any education or social program for Tutsis. Although given the poverty of Rwanda, Hutu/Tutsi intermarriage, and general corruption, systemic underfunding of social services for everyone was the norm.

In the early 90s, we had the infamous Rwandan Genocide. This came about following a collapse of the Rwandan economy and victories by the pro-Tutsi RPF operating out of Uganda. By the late 80s, the ability of the Rwandan economy to acquire foreign currency - and thus fund the comfortable western lifestyle of its elites - was funded basically by limited tea and agricultural exports (a very low margin export in practice) siphoning off the top from foreign aid. With the end of the Cold War, the ability to siphon off foreign aid was looking dicey, and the tea market had collapsed. The MRND was unable to keep the Hutu elite bought off. Thus, the MRND faced a dual crisis: a political/economic crisis where a lot of Hutu "moderates" were coming out against the corruption and parochialism of the Habyarimana government (and make common cause the with pro-Tutsi / inclusive Rwanda RPF); and an ethnic crisis which was largely a paranoid invention of the MRND that the RPF and Tutsi inside Rwanda would win in a war and reestablish the Tutsi Monarchy. The Tutsi coup in Burundi in October 1993 didn't help matters. Thus, the genocide came about because the Hutu Power hardliners in the MRND saw it as a way to neatly resolve their two problems: kill all the "moderates" and Hutu traitors in the political elite, and wipe out the threat of a Tutsi "fifth column".* The sad thing is that if the Rwandan army hadn't devolved as much as it did in late 1993/ early 1994, and maintained better command and control during the genocide, it could have repelled the RPF attack and kept the MRND/ Hutu Power clique in power. There would be a few years of isolation and sanctions against the Rwandan government, but after a few years people would forget about yet another mass killing in Africa and Rwanda would come in from the cold. The reason Rwanda saw a genocide while ever poorer and more ethnically flammable Burundi only saw instability and killings was because of how organized the MRND was, how much control over the entire population, and the fact Hutu and Tutsi lived right next to each other.

After the genocide, we had the mass killings by the RPF against Hutu - FAR, Interahamwe, genocidaires, poor bastards who got caught up in the mass killings, or the just plain unlucky.** The numbers are unclear, but based on unreleased UN reports and extrapolation of eyewitness testimony, it is believed about 50,000 were killed by the RPF in mid 1994. If you include the fighting from mid 1994 through the start of the First Congo War in late 1996, we have 100,000+ easily. It is interesting to note that even scholars quite hostile to the RPF - include Gerard Prunier and Michela Wrong - both reject the idea the RPF killings formed a "double genocide", but both emphasize the political nature of the killings. On one hand, the RPF had to establish some sort of immediate justice while the glacial UN tribunals slowly rumbled into life to go after the organizers of the genocide (which is understandable). On the other hand, the killings were clearly intended to reduce the Hutu population into a state of passive acceptance and obedience to the RPF rule. Obey and do as you are told, smile for the foreign cameras, talk about restorative communal justice, and remember - we know where you live when the foreigners leave. Don't ever imagine your opinion counts for anything or you have any rights except what we give you as a gift.

Why did I make this post other than for PC+1? To highlight how "go Rwanda with it" can mean any number of things; and how the closest description of what the Israeli government appears to want isn't a 1994 style genocide, but instead the post-genocide "send a message" killings.

*It is worth pointing out the RPF had no intention of playing nice with the Arusha peace treaty or the "Broad Based Transitional Government". The Tutsi population in Rwanda was anywhere between 10-15%, and the RPF could maybe count on in an election another 10-15% of Hutu who supported an inclusive Rwandan or otherwise had a falling out with the MRND / Hutu elite. That isn't enough to win an election against the MRND and its Hutu Power allies. Plus the RPF was largely composed of Ugandan Tutsi who after 30+ years of exile had little in common with the Rwandan Tutsi. The RPF knew that after one or two elections, when the world stopped paying attention to Rwanda, the MRND / Hutu Power majority would bring back all the old laws and things would go back to the way they were.

**The historian Gerard Prunier recounts several instances where Hutu figures who actually protected Tutsis were arrested and almost killed on the charge of being genocidaires. In one case it was because a Hutu who was involved in the killings wanted to avoid blame. In another case, a Ugandan Tutsi from the RPF wanted the land the Hutu person owned, so bribed a few people to accuse him.
 
with all due respect , Israelis have been doing Ruandas before 1948 , some of them full size .
 
Those who did that displacing with little justification are dead now, btw.
Seems unlikely, considering that survivors still existed the time of this piece from 2023:


The Nakba took place in 1948, which is now over 76 years ago.

So any surviving 18 year old Israeli who participated would be 94 years old now.

Most of them will have already died by now.

And many, in particularly those who gave the orders,
were older than 18 then. There will be very few of them left.

So I rather think that Voidwalkin:'s sentence is essentially correct.
 
the thing being there will be more Nakbas .
 
So any surviving 18 year old Israeli who participated would be 94 years old now.
Did you open and / or read the article that I linked, that you quoted? It would answer the age thing.

With regards to "those who did it", we have a lot of direct quotes from living Israelis about a "second Nakba". Voidwalkin doesn't tend to engage with these, nor recognise them. Do you?
 
Did you open and / or read the article that I linked, that you quoted? It would answer the age thing.

With regards to "those who did it", we have a lot of direct quotes from living Israelis about a "second Nakba". Voidwalkin doesn't tend to engage with these, nor recognise them. Do you?

The context of Voidwalkin's post is quite clearly that of the 1948 war, for which the great majority
of the adult Israelis involved are now dead, and your contradiction of that was just quibbling.

And changing the topic to a subsequent Nabka does not invalidate his point.

There may well indeed be a second large Nabka, as Donald Trump envisages,
and that would be an unfortunate but logical outcome from the current situation.
 
It is not necessary to read a separate article to detect that you are quibbling.
It is, because you could be informing yourself about survivors of the Nakba instead of trying a pedantry game where you attack my character and motivations instead of the argument.

But at least you answered the question. You haven't read the article. Cheers.
 
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