[RD] War in Gaza News: Pas de Deux

there was no "classic tribal resentment" on any level beyond "we don't like those guys because they have more cows than us"
I mean, history shows that reason in and of itself is often enough, particularly if combined with perceived grievance, though.

I concede it doesn't overlap completely, though of course, things seldom do. The religious aspect is notably absent. The hate appears very present. There is a bevy of absolutely venomous quotes from relatively senior Hamas leaders to attest to that.
 
Indeed, any appeal to "tribal resentments" between Hutu and Tutsi to explain the Rwandan genocide also needs to explain why Burundi didn't see a genocide and stayed at the level of mass killings and upheavals
I was kinda busy earlier, engaged in convo and couldn't quite get around to a more in depth reply right then.

IMO, you need willingness from both the political leadership and a groundswell of support to conduct genocide, and the two rarely line up. You seem focused on the former, while I highlight the latter, and here I would note both seem needed.

I'm not gonna pretend to be as familiar with that genocide as you are, but from your post, you have identified political circumstances that flashed the greenlight for political leadership in Rwanda(briefly mentioning elsewhere different ones were present in Burundi) here
Thus, the genocide came about because the Hutu Power hardliners in the MRND saw it as a way to neatly resolve their two problems: kill all the "moderates" and Hutu traitors in the political elite, and wipe out the threat of a Tutsi "fifth column"
You're speaking of what is needed for the leadership to act, I'm focused on the base, when of course, both are necessary.

In the case of Hamas, what seems to me to have occurred is that foreign money deliberately promoted extreme religious voices amongst that base, raising them up(and before anyone wants to jump in, I'm aware of evidence Netanyahu allowed this to occur, something he now, I imagine, regrets). This isn't detached to me from the general Saudi policy of funding extreme preachers involved in education and religious life, long pursued, which, even if not done here by the Saudis directly, seems to have provided the blueprint for hardline Islamist thinkers to increase their wider societal influence in Gaza, amongst other places.

This has been successfully pursued in Gaza to the extent that both the base and the leadership appear aligned, synchronized and snowballing well past genocidal intent towards Israel and Israelis. Signs are there. There's the dehumanizing rhetoric, tolerance of both their own suffering and additionally, a willingness to inflict extreme violence in questionable ways.

The Israelis, I'm sure, are well aware of those facts. Sympathizers in the West imagine that actual Palestinian activism is something they'd recognize, and there are activists there that use acceptable methods and are motivated primarily by mistreatment. But it also contains much darker currents amongst the leadership(as evidenced by Haniyeh openly stating it's not about despair, but is about holy war), and this leadership has entrenched itself within the education system firmly enough for long enough that there is sufficient support on both the necessary levels, leadership and grassroots, for some really heinous things.

They just don't have the power to carry it out successfully at the moment. Sinwar appears to have pulled a Zarqawi, instigating substantial religious tension through what I believe to be intentional creation of moral horror(knowing Israel would be compelled to respond), probably concerned by increasingly close Arab-Israeli relations, something directly contrary to his goal of destruction of Israel(for which, the support of Arab militaries is a prerequisite)

I don't think it's reasonable to expect Israel to ignore that or allow it to fester longer than it has. It's a power structure that really must be broken for there to be real hope of peace in the long-term.
 
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In the case of Hamas, what seems to me to have occurred is that foreign money deliberately promoted extreme religious voices amongst that base, raising them up(and before anyone wants to jump in, I'm aware of evidence Netanyahu allowed this to occur, something he now, I imagine, regrets).
I believe Netenyahu did way more than just allowed this to occur they nurtured Hamas. They allowed the Qutaris to fund Hamas . Avner Cohen, a Tunisia-born Jew who was an Israeli official in Gaza dealing with religious affairs during 1970s and 1980s, lamented that “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation” This divide and conquer strategy, supporting Hamas to undermine leftists and secularists in the PLO , preceded Netenyahu. Further more Israels support of Hamas was part of the overarching strategy to deny a two state solution. Weaken the PLO (later the PA ) empower Hamas then claim they have no partner to deal with. They, the Israelis, never wanted peace they want to ethnically cleanse Gaza and the West Bank. In my mind they are no better than Hamas.
 
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I believe Netenyahu did way more than just allowed this to occur they nurtured Hamas. They allowed the Qutaris to fund Hamas . Avner Cohen, a Tunisia-born Jew who was an Israeli official in Gaza dealing with religious affairs during 1970s and 1980s, lamented that “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation” This divide and conquer strategy, supporting Hamas to undermine leftists and secularists in the PLO , preceded Netenyahu. Further more Israels support of Hamas was part of the overarching strategy to deny a two state solution. Weaken the PLO (later the PA ) empower Hamas then claim they have no partner to deal with. They, the Israelis, never wanted peace they want to ethnically cleanse Gaza and the West Bank. In my mind they are no better than Hamas.
I'm hesitant to say "Israel created Hamas". A few reasons

-not the only foreign actor to pour money in
-Gaza would not be isolated from the wider trend in the ME towards fundamentalism post collapse of the USSR
-people have to go "message is good" regardless of attempts to boost its volume

The last one is most important. Blaming Israel entirely is a little like the Russians blaming the US for Ukrainian public opinion shifting, leading to Maidan. Yeah, US influence and $ were probably spent encouraging more pro-Western factions and ideologues, but people have to hear the message and support it, too. It's a little misleading to summarize either as basically elite mind control. Palestinians, Gazans especially just liked what they heard from Hamas, too(which I don't really get, but it is what it is)
 
-not the only foreign actor to pour money in
-Gaza would not be isolated from the wider trend in the ME towards fundamentalism post collapse of the USSR
-people have to go "message is good" regardless of attempts to boost its volume
You should really consider that people can go “message is good” on the basis of misinformation, or perhaps, manufactured consent. After all you, or anyone, can agree to almost anything if it’s framed correctly. That’s the importance of rhetoric, and even more important than that is the importance of creating context. It’s not just about a platform and volume, and logical appraisals of right and wrong. It’s about a good story.
 
Palestinians, Gazans especially just liked what they heard from Hamas, too(which I don't really get, but it is what it is)

No, you get it. Would you support a government that concedes and concedes, with no progress and no end to concession in sight? Thats even worse than fighting a losing war. Thats a promise that if it came to war, they would not even fight.
 
You should really consider that people can go “message is good” on the basis of misinformation, or perhaps, manufactured consent. After all you, or anyone, can agree to almost anything if it’s framed correctly. That’s the importance of rhetoric, and even more important than that is the importance of creating context. It’s not just about a platform and volume, and logical appraisals of right and wrong. It’s about a good story.
Determining what is attributable to misinfo and what is attributable to organic shift in public opinion is often impossible. Just speculation of varying degrees of informed.

Don't think this is entirely a case of manufactured consent, though. To my knowledge, no government funded Qutb's journey to America, after which he wrote his influential book. That stream of thought has been in the ME for a long time, unlike communist or capitalist or nationalist ideologies, which have origins further West and were promoted by foreign governments, and which have seemingly collapsed.
 
I'm hesitant to say "Israel created Hamas". A few reasons

-not the only foreign actor to pour money in
-Gaza would not be isolated from the wider trend in the ME towards fundamentalism post collapse of the USSR
-people have to go "message is good" regardless of attempts to boost its volume

The last one is most important. Blaming Israel entirely is a little like the Russians blaming the US for Ukrainian public opinion shifting, leading to Maidan. Yeah, US influence and $ were probably spent encouraging more pro-Western factions and ideologues, but people have to hear the message and support it, too. It's a little misleading to summarize either as basically elite mind control. Palestinians, Gazans especially just liked what they heard from Hamas, too(which I don't really get, but it is what it is)
I suppose I agree Israel did not act in a vacuum to create Hamas. However, they had a major role in its rise which to me is insanity. In the end it was a Machiavellian attempt to undermine a peaceful resolution to the problem, a Palestinian homeland. Volumes can be written about how and why Islamic extremism is so pervasive today. My guess is it is a byproduct of the divvying up of the Ottoman empire (ensuing social upheaval), colonial rule and reactionary hatred towards the former colonizers or anyone associated with them. I think the Hamas message resonates because the Palestinians have no hope and no viable alternatives.
 
For those interested, here is a Foreign Affairs article released today on the state of opinion in Gaza.


Some of the methodology described I find a little headscratching, and I disagree with its recommendations. It suggests symbolic gestures and concessions are necessary for Gazans to consider peace because Gazans are still willing to make great sacrifices and are increasingly "maximalist" in their goals. I am unsure that that would be sufficient, and deeply concerned that the results suggest Gazans believe they can exploit a disparity in willingness to struggle to victory.

Like usual, I think they underestimate Israeli resolve.
No, you get it. Would you support a government that concedes and concedes, with no progress and no end to concession in sight? Thats even worse than fighting a losing war. Thats a promise that if it came to war, they would not even fight.
No, I don't get it. Do you play chess? If you have less than half the material on the board, you stretch the game out and hope the opponent makes a blunder, you don't force the issue and immediately sacrifice a rook for a pawn in hopes the other guy resigns(baffling to even consider he might). This is an error that may well turn out to be irrecoverable.
 
For those interested, here is a Foreign Affairs article released today on the state of opinion in Gaza.


Some of the methodology described I find a little headscratching, and I disagree with its recommendations. It suggests symbolic gestures and concessions are necessary for Gazans to consider peace because Gazans are still willing to make great sacrifices and are increasingly "maximalist" in their goals. I am unsure that that would be sufficient, and deeply concerned that the results suggest Gazans believe they can exploit a disparity in willingness to struggle to victory.

Like usual, I think they underestimate Israeli resolve.

No, I don't get it. Do you play chess? If you have less than half the material on the board, you stretch the game out and hope the opponent makes a blunder, you don't force the issue and immediately sacrifice a rook for a pawn in hopes the other guy resigns(baffling to even consider he might). This is an error that may well turn out to be irrecoverable.

Maybe I can't explain it to you because you're still thinking about it in terms of approximately matched opponents.

Would you advise the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto to play for time?
 
Maybe I can't explain it to you because you're still thinking about it in terms of approximately matched opponents.

Would you advise the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto to play for time?
In chess, if you have less than half of the material on the board, it means the other guy has 2x as many pieces. It's not anything close to an evenly matched game.
Would you advise the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto to play for time?
I'm unsure if you are aware of this, but the Warsaw Ghetto uprising was only launched when playing for time became an untenable strategy(mass deportation had been ordered).
 
For those interested, here is a Foreign Affairs article released today on the state of opinion in Gaza.


Some of the methodology described I find a little headscratching, and I disagree with its recommendations. It suggests symbolic gestures and concessions are necessary for Gazans to consider peace because Gazans are still willing to make great sacrifices and are increasingly "maximalist" in their goals. I am unsure that that would be sufficient, and deeply concerned that the results suggest Gazans believe they can exploit a disparity in willingness to struggle to victory.

Like usual, I think they underestimate Israeli resolve.
No you are right. This survey doesn't help things very much...Israel is supposed to apologize to the Palestinians and they will simply accept that (?).

I guess the authors feel that they have to give them some leeway just to be fair. I can just feel ForeignAffars airing out their collars when their polls discover that, yes, most residents still view the conflict as primarily a religious one. It's like..."they can't really be this dumb, can they? this is what Israel's secular critics support?"

To me, the Gazans need to be able to parse what they want versus what Hamas is offering. An election could do that. But that does not seem to be in the cards, because going against God's party is of course blasphemy...
 
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In chess, if you have less than half of the material on the board, it means the other guy has 2x as many pieces. It's not anything close to an evenly matched game.

I don't care to argue chess specifics, and 50% of the opponents material would be a luxurious position as comparing Hamas vs. IDF.

To me, the Gazans need to be able to parse what they want versus what Hamas is offering. An election could do that. But that does not seem to be in the cards, because going against God's party is of course blasphemy...
You need to parse that noone is sincerely and confidently offering peace to Gazans. No current Palestinian group can plausibly extract peace from Israel, so they would be liars to say they certainly can.
 
I don't care to argue chess specifics, and 50% of the opponents material would be a luxurious position as comparing Hamas vs. IDF.


You need to parse that noone is sincerely and confidently offering peace to Gazans. No current Palestinian group can plausibly extract peace from Israel, so they would be liars to say they certainly can.
...that's the point. Starting wars you can't win is unreasonable.
 
...that's the point. Starting wars you can't win is unreasonable.

And so we come back to history beginning on October 7th, which is the only way to believe Hamas started the war on that date

Palestinians needed a Gandhi. They have Hamas.

Their Gandhis were murdered by Israel
 
And so we come back to history beginning on October 7th, which is the only way to believe Hamas started the war on that date
Would you prefer to hear instead that Israel began to take the war more seriously after that point?

If you wanna frame it as one big war spanning decades, I'm not hardcore against that, but it makes no functional difference; Oct 7 clearly( initiated a new phase of hostility that has ended very poorly for the instigators.
 
Palestinians needed a Gandhi. They have Hamas.
To add to what Lexi said, the journalist Robert Fisk (who knew the middle east inside and out) wrote in the early 2000's in The Great War for Civilization, about Israel's long standing policy of killing, discrediting, or imprisoning anyone who could serve as a mediator, or have enough influence to credibly represent Palestine and make necessary concessions without getting thrown out of office.
 
I don't care to argue chess specifics, and 50% of the opponents material would be a luxurious position as comparing Hamas vs. IDF.


You need to parse that noone is sincerely and confidently offering peace to Gazans. No current Palestinian group can plausibly extract peace from Israel, so they would be liars to say they certainly can.
I'm not going to deny that. Though it wasn't my comment.
But assuming this is true, the survey says you have Palestinians transposing their struggle from a political one into one versus Jews. A minuscule percent see themselves as non-religious, and the ones who do identify themselves as being "truly religious" [quoted] were more ready to accept Hamas' stated goals for not only right-of-return but ultimately sharia law.

Now, that is their own lens of interpretation, and I'm sure they feel that that is right. But I find it to be an unhealthy and outdated one in the long run. That was not Israel's "fault" for framing their opposition in such a regard; they came up with that themselves. They say this is the answer.
 
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