[RD] War in Gaza News: Pas de Deux

Ok, but imagine it was the UK drone striking the IRA without regard for their own or Irish citizens, because they had sufficient rumour regarding the IRA meeting in that house sometimes?

I'm assuming you wouldn't have the same opinion there, but do you know why?

As the UK did not respond to the IRA campaign by having the RAF bomb Dublin, this is a hypothetical rabbit hole.

If you want comparisons, I'd prefer to stick to actual historical events, e.g. Hiroshima and Nagasaki or the sinking of the Lusitania.
 
So, next question:
If you were literally in charge of Hamas, what would you do differently to avoid this?
How would you change their tactic to maximize whatever gains you assume being their top priority, without also endangering their own civilians?
Bonus question:
As a person, what is your opinion: Why did they do it this way, and not in the way YOU see being more effective? That is, if you actually have a more effective way in mind, of course.

I have no idea. All the guys who weren't using human shields died years ago - which is the beginning of a clue. Gaza is among the most densely populated areas on the planet and is under a very high degree of surveillance. The disparity in force, effective range, and intel is huge.

There looks to be no easy answer.

Moving civilians out of combat areas is amongst the most effective techniques of limiting civilian casualties.

More to the point, though? If Israel wanted to maximize civilian casualties, I can think of about 10 different ways they could do so.

Here I'm referring to a deliberate strategy by US policymakers to defeat the Vietcong via attrition. It resulted in famous "search and destroy" missions, a highly mobile style of warfare with frequent patrol, very often initiated by intensive artillery shelling of areas suspected to be harboring Vietcong combatants.

Often, commanders in the field were authorized to act according to their own without much intel oversight, additionally.

Israel, in contrast, does use substantially more intel oversight. It does move civilians out of the way, or at least attempts to, which is generally more effort than America made in Vietnam.

Both. Their control techniques appear more or less based on the same conceptual principles ours were in Iraq.

They have most of the same limitations, too. In both instances, bad intel appraisal happens, and they realize retrospectively that eh, mighta made a mistake. Of course, there's nothing that can undo the mistake. But there's also no way to eliminate human error completely with present technology.

Refraining from maximizing casualties is not evidence of minimizing casualties and forcible population transfer can also be a crime itself. All you know is they're relatively better, but what is their position relative to the ideal or even the acceptable?

Ok, you're claiming knowledge of similarity of ISraeli/US methods and outcomes. How do you know this? Is it documented?


As the UK did not respond to the IRA campaign by having the RAF bomb Dublin, this is a hypothetical rabbit hole.
Yes its a hypothetical. So what? Its useful to think about.

I'm going to answer for you because you're dragging your feet here. The UK would not have been justified and would have been widely condemned for doing so. Its not even something you need to think about, because its closer to home and you can find your way here just from gut thinking alone.

So what is the difference between the way you regard a hypothetical of the UK handling counter insurgency with bombardment, and Israel's actual handling of Hamas? One starting point is the kinship I'm sure you feel with NI/Irish people.
 
which is the beginning of a clue.
Of which one?
1. There is no currently accessible way to continue terrorism against Israel without involving predictable Palestinian civilian casualties?
OR
2. There is no need to continue terrorism against Israel if the only available method explicitly endangers countless Palestinian civilians?
Do you actually see my point here, by the way?
 
Refraining from maximizing casualties is not evidence of minimizing casualties and forcible population transfer can also be a crime itself. All you know is they're relatively better, but what is their position relative to the ideal or even the acceptable?

Ok, you're claiming knowledge of similarity of ISraeli/US methods and outcomes. How do you know this? Is it documented?

This article references a famous report from the New York Times which described a loosening of Israeli ToE. I've not linked the NYT article because of a pay wall.

I believe they went loose to grapple with the reality of dislodging Hamas fighters from entrenched areas fortified with civilians as a wall. The only potentially objectionable practice is use of cell phone traffic as a rough indicator of civilian inhabitation, but these strikes still had to be approved by human beings, leaving the question largely still one of human judgement.
 
Of which one?
1. There is no currently accessible way to continue terrorism against Israel without involving predictable Palestinian civilian casualties?
OR
2. There is no need to continue terrorism against Israel if the only available method explicitly endangers countless Palestinian civilians?
Do you actually see my point here, by the way?

The beginning of a clue is that if the people who perform a behaviour tend to die, you should not be surprised to see a decrease in that behaviour over time, which is different than either of yours.

But re:1 - Pretty much true.
2: Governments of warlords, gangs or insurgencies don't act high regard to these obligations to civilians in their territory. Hamas is a mixed organization so I imagine that different elements have conflicting opinions and goals here.

Also no, I do not see your point. You're going to need to state it explicitly.
 
Also no, I do not see your point. You're going to need to state it explicitly.
I was asking YOUR opinion, not that of Hamas.
So, did I get it right that YOU personally don't support the concept of terrorism under such conditions?
Or is your opinion more nuanced, then please elaborate?
 
I was asking YOUR opinion, not that of Hamas.
So, did I get it right that YOU personally don't support the concept of terrorism under such conditions?
Or is your opinion more nuanced, then please elaborate?

I personally wouldn't conduct a terror campaign - but that is not an interesting or surprising thing so I don't think that is what you are asking?

I still don't get your point.
 

This article references a famous report from the New York Times which described a loosening of Israeli ToE. I've not linked the NYT article because of a pay wall.

I believe they went loose to grapple with the reality of dislodging Hamas fighters from entrenched areas fortified with civilians as a wall. The only potentially objectionable practice is use of cell phone traffic as a rough indicator of civilian inhabitation, but these strikes still had to be approved by human beings, leaving the question largely still one of human judgement.

The only potentially objectionable? Who gets to make that judgement and how are they deciding that?

Also not sure this is great evidence of similarity of methods or outcomes to US. It kind of just shows that ToEs exist and are updated. Not that they are good, sufficient, or even followed.
 
I personally wouldn't conduct a terror campaign - but that is not an interesting or surprising thing so I don't think that is what you are asking?

I still don't get your point.
I was merely clarifying your position on the topic.
The first impression I've got from your previous posts somehow implied it a bit differently, lol.
I'm glad I was wrong, and I really hope I *was* wrong.
 
So what is the difference between the way you regard a hypothetical of the UK handling counter insurgency with bombardment, and Israel's actual handling of Hamas?

I don't require you to answer for me. And your answers are dubious at best.

The IRA campaign was arguably a boundary dispute as to where the two states begin and end.

The Hamas campaign is not a boundary dispute, it is about erasing the existence of Israel and its Jewish inhabitants.
 
I don't require you to answer for me. And your answers are dubious at best.

The IRA campaign was arguably a boundary dispute as to where the two states begin and end.

The Hamas campaign is not a boundary dispute, it is about erasing the existence of Israel and its Jewish inhabitants.

Come on, think of the 1920s. Think of what happened with boundary redrawings around that time with India/Pakistan, Greece/Turkey. If stuff had really kicked off in NI, existences would have been erased. That was very much on the undesirable upper limit of the cards.

And I'm just going to say it here: Hamas is not a plausible existential threat to Israel. There isn't really anything locally that can seriously threaten Israel's existence short of a nuclear Iran. To say otherwise is just manufacturing an excuse to cover Israel's own actions. Same way Russia says Ukraine presents a threat.
 
The possibility of a nuclear Iran is high and a nuclear Iran might supply nukes
to Hamas and that would eliminate Israel and exterminate the Jews there.

So pretending that Israel's existence is not threatened is a dubious line.
 
The possibility of a nuclear Iran is high and a nuclear Iran might supply nukes
to Hamas and that would eliminate Israel and exterminate the Jews there.

So pretending that Israel's existence is not threatened is a dubious line.

Haha, this isn't fiction. You don't let nukes go like that. Noone does. Noone is that stupid.

Iran would gain no value from giving away nukes and no plausible deniability. Hamas is in no way relevant to Iran's threat on a nuclear dimension.
 
What I would do and what would be martyrs might do are quite different.

The Israelis are correct to see Hamas as an existential threat.
 
Hamas is not a plausible existential threat to Israel.
To the ENTIRE state at once, well, no. Thanks God for that.
But let's see you say the same comment to the face of the surviving family members (or even close friends) of those who were murdered on October 7.
Did THEY also "weren't threatened by Hamas terrorism", really?
And just to remind you, in case you respond with "buh ze Palestinian kids":
1. Israeli kids (and parents) were TARGETED, while peacefully living in their HOMES. It was NOT a "military operation". It was a DIRECTED MASSACRE TARGETING CIVILIANS.
2. It wasn't the first such case, just the WORST one. There had been lots of cases when civilians were targeted IN THEIR HOMES. None of that is "military".
3. Israel DOESN'T shoot rockets at Gaza FROM ITS CIVILIAN HOMES. Those homes ARE NOT "military bases", UNLIKE those of Hamas.
Let's see.
 
What I would do and what would be martyrs might do are quite different.

The Israelis are correct to see Hamas as an existential threat.

Why would Iran even make a nuke that Hamas would be capable of deploying? Wouldn't Iran make a nuke that Iran can deploy, by air or by missile? Much more value in that.

Come on man, don't be hardheaded about this. This is just really obvious - Iran is not giving Hamas a nuke. The most plausible scenario I can see where that might sort of happen is the fall of the Iranian regime to internal conflict, and the guy securing the nukes sells it to a guy who sells it to a guy. Then Hamas has a warhead on the back of a truck. Real nice deployment system that.
 
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To the ENTIRE state at once, well, no. Thanks God for that.
But let's see you say the same comment to the face of the surviving family members (or even close friends) of those who were murdered on October 7.
Did THEY also "weren't threatened by Hamas terrorism", really?
And just to remind you, in case you respond with "buh ze Palestinian kids":
1. Israeli kids (and parents) were TARGETED, while peacefully living in their HOMES. It was NOT a "military operation". It was a DIRECTED MASSACRE TARGETING CIVILIANS.
2. It wasn't the first such case, just the WORST one. There had been lots of cases when civilians were targeted IN THEIR HOMES. None of that is "military".
3. Israel DOESN'T shoot rockets at Gaza FROM ITS CIVILIAN HOMES. Those homes ARE NOT "military bases", UNLIKE those of Hamas.
Let's see.

So what though? What does that all add up to? Its bad but if massacres matter, then why don't they matter both ways? Why is 40,000 a smaller number than 1000? When its 40,000 its direct enough. Never mind that we have all these euphemisms for collateral damage, 40,000 is a deliberate choice. Thats policy.
 
Why would Iran even make a nuke that Hamas would be capable of deploying? Wouldn't Iran make a nuke that Iran can deploy, by air or by missile? Much more value in that.

Come on man, don't be hardheaded about this. This is just really obvious - Iran is not giving Hamas a nuke. The most plausible scenario I can see where that might sort of happen is the fall of the Iranian regime to internal conflict, and the guy securing the nukes sells it to a guy who sells it to a guy. Then Hamas has a warhead on the back of a truck. Real nice deployment system that.

You do realize that warhead and delivery systems are separate things, and not an inseparable item? The same warhead can be used on missile or strapped in a car and delivered by the tried and true suicide bomber method.
 
You do realize that warhead and delivery systems are separate things, and not an inseparable item? The same warhead can be used on missile or strapped in a car and delivered by the tried and true suicide bomber method.

Really? You're seriously going to go with that? Nuclear warhead suicide truck?
 
Really? You're seriously going to go with that? Nuclear warhead suicide truck?

It's a possibility. It's not like Hamas cares about civilian casualties on their side. Or Iran can hand over a short range delivery system too.

The hard thing about using a nuke is finding will to use it. Hamas is one of entities that has that will.
 
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