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[RD] War in Gaza: News Thread

And part of my argument is that Biden's campaign advisers may have calculated that use of Gaza as a justification for not voting for Biden was only ever going to be smoke and mirrors because no substantive change to those voters' commitment against voting for Biden was ever on the table.

One last point - many of the prominent Arab-Americans now saying they won't vote for Biden over Gaza voted for him in 2020. I voted for him in 2020.
 
I was all for voting Biden until 10/7, and was definitely persuadable on the issue until this spring. It’s been his response to the campus protests and the recent Israeli escalations that have pushed me into the unpersuadably no camp.
 
Tweet said:
When Haaretz was going to publish about Netanyahu's monitoring of and threats to the ICC prosecutor, the journalist was told he “would suffer the consequences and get to know the interrogation rooms of the Israeli security authorities from the inside.”
 
I would be fine voting for Biden if he did that, yes. I can't speak for others.
I think that's the calculation the campaign is dealing with... how many potential voters are still genuinely persuadable and what it would take to get them to vote for Biden, in terms of action on Gaza, versus how many votes they would lose if they did, in fact take such action... versus how many voters are already moved into the "unpersuadable" camp based on what has already happened/not happened vis-a-vis Israel and Gaza. My sense is that when Oct 7 happened, the standard, predictable, politically safe response was to "ironclad" support our US ally, Israel.

It was only once Democratic constituents and potential voters started voicing opposition, most visibly/significantly in the Michigan primary, coupled with the campus protests, that the Biden campaign had to consider adjusting that stance. The Michigan primary wasn't until 2/27, the very end of February 2024. So the Biden campaign possibly wasn't even aware of how willing their potential voters were to defect on this issue until right before Spring, (which officially began March 19th)... and by then lots of folks had already mentally committed to the notion that they were unpersuadable on the issue.
They're trying to have the cake and eat it too.
I think that's exactly right. Well said. They are trying to dance on this fine (possibly non-existent) line where they keep the pro-Israel (and/or Zionist) constituency, while giving enough trim-around-the-edges/lip service/window-dressing to hold onto their pro-Palestinian voters. I don't think its working, based on the polling and my anecdotal observations, particularly on these threads. The Biden campaign seems to be getting forced into an "us-or-them" decision. I don't think they are making the right decision, but I can certainly see why the advisers might feel like its the "safer" decision. Again, just based on my own anecdotal observations on these threads... Biden's campaign may be viewing the pro-Palestinian vote as already unpersuadable based on things that have already happened in the past, including multiple issues that have nothing to do with Israel/Gaza.
I was all for voting Biden until 10/7, and was definitely persuadable on the issue until this spring. It’s been his response to the campus protests and the recent Israeli escalations that have pushed me into the unpersuadably no camp.
My recollection was that you were already speaking pretty strongly about your disinclination towards Biden/Democrats since the winter over trans rights issues. So to me it seemed that you were already unpersuadable long before 10/7. Obviously, my perception could have been mistaken, but that's how it came across, at least that's how I remember it. But even as far as the Spring goes, my above point is that the Biden campaign may not have even been aware of the political implications of the issue until close to Spring, so a vote they lost in early Spring was arguably a vote they never had any real chance of securing anyway.
 
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Obviously, my perception could have been mistaken, but that's how it came across, at least that's how I remember it.
This right here is why I consider the whole "perception of voter intentions" (if employed by the Democrats as per the theory here) to be just an excuse (for the Democrats). You either take people at their word, or you don't. And if you don't, they don't owe you (or whoever) anything, simple as.
 
This right here is why I consider the whole "perception of voter intentions" (if employed by the Democrats as per the theory here) to be just an excuse (for the Democrats). You either take people at their word, or you don't. And if you don't, they don't owe you (or whoever) anything, simple as.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you take me at my word? What is your point about what people "owe" me? I don't understand why that matters or why you are mentioning it. Are you back to projecting onto me the role/character of trying to convince people to vote for Biden/Democrats? Something else? Again, I don't get what the "owe you anything" statement is about... What do you imagine I think people "owe" me?

In any case... the post was directed at Lexicus and schlaufuchs addressing my perception as it relates to schlaufuchs' position on Biden/Democrats, particularly based on the US response to the Gaza invasion, and the perception was based on our past conversations and posts going back at least to the Winter on the subject. So again, I'm not sure how you felt involved in that.
 
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Israel says it’s taken control of key area of Gaza’s border with Egypt awash in smuggling tunnels​

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s military said Wednesday it seized control of a strategic corridor along Gaza’s border with Egypt to cut off smuggling tunnels as it tries to destroy the militant Hamas group in a war now in its eighth month.

The capture of the Philadelphi Corridor could complicate Israel’s relations with Egypt, which has complained about Israel’s advance toward its border. Israel says the corridor is awash in tunnels that have funneled weapons and other goods for Hamas — despite a yearslong blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt.

Israel also deepened its incursion into the southern Gaza city of Rafah, where hundreds of thousands have been seeking shelter from fighting, and where intensifying violence in recent days has killed dozens of Palestinians. The military said that a fifth brigade — up to several thousand soldiers — joined troops operating in the city on Tuesday.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-p...s-05-29-2024-7952f779552f41ef6fb44c3b662f5c48

This seemingly contradicts the claim of wanting/allowing people to evacuate. Israel is occupying all the routes of escape into Egypt.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you take me at my word?
I try to take everyone at their word, except when they expressively prove that I can't. That isn't the case here, I take you at your word.

You, however, are not taking schlaufuchs at hers. You are inserting your perception of it over the top. Which I don't really care about, personally. So I focused on the Democrats following the same logic, which has been your hypothetical; your theory throughout, right? Basing policy how much they think voters affected by the situation in Gaza will actually alter their position. In that case, I do not trust the Democrats to actually care about the voters' actual opinion, because they'll just decide that said voters aren't actually going to change their mind, and cut support (for Gaza) / opposition against Israel's actions there and then.

You've already agreed with Lexi that this is a cynical political stance to take. Why on Earth should anyone then believe they're attempting this in good faith, in the hypothetical that this is what they're doing at all?
 
Supporting Israel is (still, for now) the right move politically in the US, there is no question. Too many soulless piggies and not enough voters with a conscience. And the Zionist lobby has a lot of money and power, certainly far moreso than the Palestinians (indeed one measure of this is that the phrase "Palestinian liberation lobby" is basically laughable).

The trends in this regard are not encouraging for the Zionists, though. Young people are far likelier to support Palestinian liberation than to "stand with Israel." I believe I will live to see the day that the numbers on Palestine's side begin to outweigh the numbers and resources on the Zionist side and the smart political move, at least for Democrats, changes to supporting Palestinian liberation. Israel's increasingly obvious fascist turn will probably make that day come sooner than we think. Many Democratic politicians who would otherwise be entirely inclined to "stand with Israel" are already not too happy with Netanyahu & co's more-or-less open preference for Trump over figures like Biden and Obama.
 
Basing policy how much they think voters affected by the situation in Gaza will actually alter their position. In that case, I do not trust the Democrats to actually care about the voters' actual opinion, because they'll just decide that said voters aren't actually going to change their mind, and cut support (for Gaza) / opposition against Israel's actions there and then.

You've already agreed with Lexi that this is a cynical political stance to take. Why on Earth should anyone then believe they're attempting this in good faith, in the hypothetical that this is what they're doing at all?
You're correct that I am cynical on this issue, and I believe that the position of the Biden campaign is completely cynical... they don't particularly care about the Palestinians plight, morally. They were just blindsided by the fact that they stood to lose a significant demographic in swing-state Michigan over it, and to erode college student voters over it... that was the only reason they began formulating strategies to try and appease that part of their potential voter pool. Your issue seems to be that since their position is cynical, it by definition, can't be in good faith. If that is correct, I disagree, in that I think that the Biden campaign can have a good-faith cynical and simultaneously pessimistic/cautious attitude towards courting those voters. Again, I think that is the wrong approach, and would like to see them at least try a more optimistic, all-in'ish approach, but I think even @Lexicus wouldn't advise them going that far.

So it seems like we agree overall, on the dynamics of what is going on, and the distinction is onIy over what word/term to use to describe it, ie whether "cynical" can also be "good faith". I really don't think the distinction matters between the two terms, in this instance... the point remains the same.
 
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Israel says it’s taken control of key area of Gaza’s border with Egypt awash in smuggling tunnels​


https://apnews.com/article/israel-p...s-05-29-2024-7952f779552f41ef6fb44c3b662f5c48

This seemingly contradicts the claim of wanting/allowing people to evacuate. Israel is occupying all the routes of escape into Egypt.
FWIW, Egypt would rather the Palestinians in Gaza stay in Gaza, for reasons noble and ignoble.
Egypt has no desire to be complicit in what it views as an Israeli attempt to ethnically cleanse Gaza. This is similar to the quandary the UN found itself in during the Yugoslav Wars and the ethnic cleansing of Bosnia. Sure, the UN could evacuate all the Bosnians out of Bosnia, but isn't that doing what the Serbs wanted? No more Bosnians in Bosnia.
Egypt is also looking at its moribund economy and increasingly fragile stability and has no desire for hundreds of thousands of poor and desperate refugees to enter the country, especially when in a few years they will be a very loud group calling attention to the fact the Egyptian government's policy toward Israel is not popular inside Egypt.
 
FWIW, Egypt would rather the Palestinians in Gaza stay in Gaza, for reasons noble and ignoble.
Egypt has no desire to be complicit in what it views as an Israeli attempt to ethnically cleanse Gaza. This is similar to the quandary the UN found itself in during the Yugoslav Wars and the ethnic cleansing of Bosnia. Sure, the UN could evacuate all the Bosnians out of Bosnia, but isn't that doing what the Serbs wanted? No more Bosnians in Bosnia.
Egypt is also looking at its moribund economy and increasingly fragile stability and has no desire for hundreds of thousands of poor and desperate refugees to enter the country, especially when in a few years they will be a very loud group calling attention to the fact the Egyptian government's policy toward Israel is not popular inside Egypt.
The solution to me, and I think it is obvious, is to assist those people who want to be assisted. This is not caving in to anyone else's plans...
I think the cause of advancing Palestine statehood at the cost of those people's lives by telling those people to stay and don't move is a very cynical approach for Egypt to take, as opposed to finding homes for those refugees which ought be the more immediate concern.
 
The solution to me, and I think it is obvious, is to assist those people who want to be assisted. This is not caving in to anyone else's plans...
I think the cause of advancing Palestine statehood at the cost of those people's lives by telling those people to stay and don't move is a very cynical approach for Egypt to take, as opposed to finding homes for those refugees which ought be the more immediate concern.
If your concern is the cost of people's lives, your priority should be on getting Israel to stop. Everything else is merely harm reduction without addressing the cause.
 
The solution to me, and I think it is obvious, is to assist those people who want to be assisted. This is not caving in to anyone else's plans...
I think the cause of advancing Palestine statehood at the cost of those people's lives by telling those people to stay and don't move is a very cynical approach for Egypt to take, as opposed to finding homes for those refugees which ought be the more immediate concern.

It's certainly not more cynical than terrorizing people into fleeing their homes and then saying they actually left voluntarily and this land is ours now
 
The solution to me, and I think it is obvious, is to assist those people who want to be assisted. This is not caving in to anyone else's plans...
I think the cause of advancing Palestine statehood at the cost of those people's lives by telling those people to stay and don't move is a very cynical approach for Egypt to take, as opposed to finding homes for those refugees which ought be the more immediate concern.
Obvious concern trolling is obvious.
Moderator Action: Warned for obvious trolling. The_J

Right-wing nutters hiding behind a moderate label always say they're against the right thing because they are 'concerned' about the victims.
 
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It's certainly not more cynical than terrorizing people into fleeing their homes and then saying they actually left voluntarily and this land is ours now
I wouldn't say that

Obvious concern trolling is obvious.

Right-wing nutters hiding behind a moderate label always say they're against the right thing because they are 'concerned' about the victims.
Can you think of a position opposed to yours on Israel but which is also not right wing? Just curious.
 
I wouldn't say that

I see Zionist claim that Palestinians left voluntarily in '48 like every other day. The same exact thing will happen if they evacuate into Egypt from the Gaza strip. Aside from the sheer logistical concerns, Egypt is quite right imo not to allow this.

Anyway bringing Egypt into this conversation is a bit like blaming the US and Canada for the Holocaust because they didn't let in enough Jewish refugees from Europe. It's a dumb red herring designed to deflect responsibility from Israel.
 
FWIW, Egypt would rather the Palestinians in Gaza stay in Gaza, for reasons noble and ignoble.
Egypt has no desire to be complicit in what it views as an Israeli attempt to ethnically cleanse Gaza. This is similar to the quandary the UN found itself in during the Yugoslav Wars and the ethnic cleansing of Bosnia. Sure, the UN could evacuate all the Bosnians out of Bosnia, but isn't that doing what the Serbs wanted? No more Bosnians in Bosnia.
Egypt is also looking at its moribund economy and increasingly fragile stability and has no desire for hundreds of thousands of poor and desperate refugees to enter the country, especially when in a few years they will be a very loud group calling attention to the fact the Egyptian government's policy toward Israel is not popular inside Egypt.
Egypt isn't the only neighbor that does not want Palestinian refugees. Jordan does not want them either, neither does Turkey. Nobody wants them really... and as @Lexicus points out, "wanting"/accepting them is almost besides the point because taking them in would then just be accused as assisting in ethnic cleansing of Gaza. But even that is besides the point, because as the article points out, Israel apparently isn't letting people leave, even if they wanted to.
 
Moderator Action: Removed quote - lymond
Plenty of antisemites support Israel because if the Jews are there, they aren't in whatever country the antisemites are in.
 
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Plenty of antisemites support Israel because if the Jews are there, they aren't in whatever country the antisemites are in.
And because turning the rootless cosmopolitans into a conventional militarised ethnostate feels like a win for them. And because they see said ethnostate as an example to hold up and emulate.
 
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