• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

[RD] War in Gaza: News Thread

Trying to distill my thoughts/position on this particular issue, for the sake of clarity...

I asked three questions, one of which was "Why should the US punish/abandon Israel to help Gaza?", to which the response was essentially "because its the right thing to do". That makes sense, but then the obviously corollary question is "why is the US obligated to 'do the right thing'"? The obvious response to that being, "because that is what the US professes to do". I agree with that.

So then, I point out, what I think is also obvious, which is that the US is misleading, to the extent that the US proclaims to be motivated by a desire/goal/policy of "doing the right thing". Your response, seemed to be, that you agree, you know that, but you want to confront and expose the US on that anyway, to call the US out for the performative propaganda, lies, etc. I see value in that, but now that's done. So OK, we've exposed the lies... "pulled back the curtain" as you described it. The "doing the right thing" motivation to help Gaza has been exposed as a sham and a farce. So that's the end, we're all in agreement... unless...we can define some other reason the US should help Gaza, besides "doing the right thing" which we all knew was BS, and which we've exposed exhaustively, as a farce. Otherwise, we are just speedrunning Super Mario Bros over and over to expose the warp-zone hack again and again. We already exposed it. Does that makes sense?

Why should the US help Gaza?
Because its the right thing to do.
Yeah, but the US doesn't really care about doing the right thing, you know that.
I do know that... but I want to expose the US for it.
OK so you exposed them, so now do we agree that there's no reason for the US to help Gaza?
Okay, this tracks. But at the same time I still think the reason is to do the right thing. It's a reason. The fact that the US is discarding it in favour of the political status quo in the region doesn't stop it being a reason, does it?

All that said, Lexi very probably has a more motivating answer r.e. realpolitik.

Also, I completely missed your previous post for some reason. I don't want to go around and around with it, so just a couple of bits:
Notice here, that you seemed to miss/skip the part of my post which answered this question directly:
It wasn't in the post when I quoted it. No judgement here, I edit my posts all the time. Either that or I was hallucinating.
This is a false choice (and some other terms I'll hold back on). You can discuss the substantive issues I've raised without giving up your right to talk about the atrocities.
But you're criticising us talking about the atrocities because we keep blaming the US for their part in it, due to you finding our blaming of the US "repetitive and a little boring".

It's not a false choice, that suggests (again) a lack of good faith. I'm genuinely asking, how on earth do you expect us to express our genuine feelings if you're going to wander in and chide us for being repetitive? Is it purely some kind of "defend the US" position you're taking here or something?
 
Okay, this tracks. But at the same time I still think the reason is to do the right thing. It's a reason. The fact that the US is discarding it in favour of the political status quo in the region doesn't stop it being a reason, does it?
Well yes and no. Yes it does, in the sense that the reason has been literally discarded, so exposing that doesn't create a reason to help Gaza, rather it eliminates a reason. On the other hand, no it doesn't, in the sense that the US's opportunism, moral bankruptcy, cynical self-interest does not change what is morally right. What is the morally right thing to do isn't dictated by self interests at the time.

If you (the royal you) ask why you should do something and they respond "To get X" and you respond "I don't care about X", and they protest "But you said you did!', and you respond "Well I lied"... that invalidates X as a reason/motivation. Right?
Also, I completely missed your previous post for some reason. I don't want to go around and around with it, so just a couple of bits:

It wasn't in the post when I quoted it. No judgement here, I edit my posts all the time.
Same.
But you're criticising us talking about the atrocities
No, I don't think that's accurate, and to the extent that I did something like that or I came across as doing that somehow, I didn't intend that. I've pointed out atrocities and similar myself on this thread.
because we keep blaming the US for their part in it
Again, no. I acknowledge US blameworthiness/involvement in what Israel is doing. I have been debating with folks blaming the US in the sense that I'm asking about other countries roles, responsibilities, involvement and more importantly, probing the question of why the US should intervene. Blame is understandable, and moreover, blame alone is, in-and-of-itself a "reason" in terms of US intervention, ie, "The US should help Gaza, because the situation Gaza is in is the US's fault", (implied by "blaming" the US). But "fixing one's own mess" of course, is a version of "the right thing to do".
if you're going to wander in
in fairness... my first post in this particular thread was March 17th, yours was March 4th. I'm not going to go back and look at all the prior Israel/Palestine threads... my point is just that I've been participating in this thread/discussion regularly. You can't characterize me as someone who is "wandering in" and butting into your private conversation.
 
Last edited:
I'd argue settler-inflicted violence is more prolific, but considering that settlers are frequently protected by the IDF as they carry out raids (particularly in the West Bank), there are plenty of instances you could look for yourself. Many have been linked in this and previous threads.

This is why making a value judgement r.e. "intent" is difficult when you only have a passing familiarity.
There is no raid of equivalent scale. Nor of unambiguously lethal intent. We both know it. It would be the world's leading headline.

The simple fact is this: October 7th was an escalation in the level of direct, unambigous moral horror. It didn't even have plausible deniability! It wasn't about settling land, it was about straight up killing Jewish people, indisctimate slaughter, and Hamas said as much.

And it's worse when put in context: annihilation of Jewish people is right there in the mission statement! Where is the equivalent statement in the Israeli constitution?

Note the stated goal of Israel: destruction of Hamas, not annihilation of Palestinians. You can argue they're being too callous of civilian casualties. There's much evidence for that. But I really do have difficulty seeing any equivalence in venom here.
You mention the cycle of violence, but you seem to consider action B wholly justified because of action A. Why?
See above.
 
and how does it relate to the three US self-interest bullet points you raised earlier (1. ME destabilization 2. 9/11 3. Iran)?

It seems so obvious to me that I struggle to explain it. An aggressive, expansionist regime in Israel breaks the anti-Iran coalition because the Arabs don't want to be genocided and Greater Israel expands well beyond the borders of Mandatory Palestine. It leads to terrorism that affects the US because people see the US as Israel's sponsor and patron. The US supporting Israel is also pretty devastating to the US ability to project soft power which is based on people around the world buying into the idea that US "rules-based order" is good for them. This is hard to do when we have such obvious racist double standards in our "rules" e.g. the completely different response to Ukraine and Gaza.

There is no raid of equivalent scale. Nor of unambiguously lethal intent. We both know it.

The idea that Israel's campaign in Gaza is not "of unambiguously lethal intent" is preposterous. It has killed an entire order of magnitude more people than Hamas killed on October 7th, so you're right that it's not equivalent.

The simple fact is this: October 7th was an escalation in the level of direct, unambigous moral horror.

No, it wasn't. You only believe this because the tv you watch doesn't show you the routine deaths of Palestinians in the occupied territories.

wasn't about settling land, it was about straight up killing Jewish people, indisctimate slaughter, and Hamas said as much.

Hamas in fact claimed the October 7th attack was in retaliation for Israeli security crackdowns at the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, hence Hamas' name for the operation, Al Aqsa Flood. Again, you think this because someone on the tv told you and you believed it.

Note the stated goal of Israel: destruction of Hamas, not annihilation of Palestinians.

An argument suggests an unfamiliarity with the elementary historical facts surrounding basically every single genocide, more or less all of which have been claimed by their perpetrators to actually be something else. The Nazis for example intentionally and systematically conflated Jewish civilians with guerrillas and terrorists.

See above.

Why then is October 7th not an acceptable response to 8 decades of violence and thievery on the part of the Zionists?
 
There's far too much animosity and mutual fear between these two groups of people for this plan to be at all realistic.

edit: some more points
Article is far too pessimistic on Israel, from nearly start to finish. It overestimates sympathy for Palestinians and underestimates sympathy for Israel. It underestimates the IDF, and overestimates Iran.
I'm quite certain Palestinians, too, see Israel as a colonial enterprise as does this article.
Where they divert from their Western sympathizers is believing the source of that power is Judaism. Not the US.
 
The idea that Israel's campaign in Gaza is not "of unambiguously lethal intent" is preposterous. It has killed an entire order of magnitude more people than Hamas killed on October 7th, so you're right that it's not equivalent.
Show the instances where it appears civilians have been deliberately targeted. I suspect they're more ambiguous than Oct 7. I am open to demonstration of Israeli excess and this is where you can probably make the strongest case that they've become in the wrong, though

As to the latter point, that's what happens when you start a war and lose. As the Nazis were against the German self interest, Hamas is against the Palestinian.
No, it wasn't. You only believe this because the tv you watch doesn't show you the routine deaths of Palestinians in the occupied territories.
I don't have cable, and I'm aware of the checkpoints, state harassment, patrols, and th brutality those bring, but these things fall below mass rape and murder, ultimately.
Hamas in fact claimed the October 7th attack was in retaliation for Israeli security crackdowns at the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, hence Hamas' name for the operation, Al Aqsa Flood. Again, you think this because someone on the tv told you and you believed it.
"We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it twice and three times. The Al-Aqsa Deluge is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth,”

Considering the spokesman quoted is a member of an organization that cites the protocols of the elders of zion in their founding charter, such ugliness is not unexpected.
An argument suggests an unfamiliarity with the elementary historical facts surrounding basically every single genocide, more or less all of which have been claimed by their perpetrators to actually be something else. The Nazis for example intentionally and systematically conflated Jewish civilians with guerrillas and terrorists.
Where are the Totenkopf equivalents in the IDF? If you're going "exterminate them as partisans", where are the executioners and the mass graves? Hard to hide anything in Gaza. Lotta cameras.

Complicating your latter point is the fact Hamas prefers to base its guerrillas around critical civilian infrastructure. I'm sure you're aware of quotes about their desire to make martyrs of their own people.
Why then is October 7th not an acceptable response to 8 decades of violence and thievery on the part of the Zionists?
Dude: here you have a group that calls for annihilation of Israel, douses its rhetoric in ugly religious bigotry, and stands polar opposite to all the social views I've seen you write.

They don't care about your anti-colonialist leanings. The lipservice is just that - the charter is plain. Their self-stated struggle is not national self determination, but national annihilation, of Israel in particular.

Their message is remarkably clear: "Jews out!". No, Oct 7 was not in any way justifiable. Its not as though Weizmann and Ben-Gurion were at the music festival. Those kids didn't steal any land.

Surreal.
 
Show the instances where it appears civilians have been deliberately targeted.

Virtually every airstrike has intentionally targeted civilians. The rules of engagement are such that hundreds of civilians are considered an acceptable trade for one Hamas member (which includes people who just work for the civil administration in Gaza). There has been reporting in Israeli media that the Israeli strategy has been to target people when they are in their homes with their families as well.



As to the latter point, that's what happens when you start a war and lose.

Again, Israel started this war in 1948.

I don't have cable, and I'm aware of the checkpoints, state harassment, patrols, and th brutality those bring, but these things fall below mass rape and murder, ultimately.

You're unaware that the IDF and settlers routinely kill people in the West Bank?


The facts of this case are not atypical.

"We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it twice and three times. The Al-Aqsa Deluge is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth,”

Note how the justification even in this quote is "teaching Israel a lesson" and not "we must kill Jews".

Where are the Totenkopf equivalents in the IDF? If you're going "exterminate them as partisans", where are the executioners and the mass graves? Hard to hide anything in Gaza. Lotta cameras.

Lmao, "where are the mass graves"? Well first of all you don't need to line people up and shoot them and bury them when you're blowing them to bits by remote instead, but as for mass graves...


Complicating your latter point is the fact Hamas prefers to base its guerrillas around critical civilian infrastructure.

IDF headquarters is in downtown Tel Aviv. Are the civilians there human shields?

Their self-stated struggle is not national self determination, but national annihilation, of Israel in particular.

I suppose one could argue this, but then by the same logic Zionism is not about national self-determination but about national annihilation of Palestine.

Their message is remarkably clear: "Jews out!". No, Oct 7 was not in any way justifiable. Its not as though Weizmann and Ben-Gurion were at the music festival. Those kids didn't steal any land.

Surreal.

Yeah, so October 7th is unjustifiable but killing well over 10,000 children, which the IDF has done, is justifiable?

Surreal indeed.
 
@Voidwalkin - apologies, not ignoring you, but Lexi said everything I could say and I don't want to be repetitive. I'll read any replies you give.

If you (the royal you) ask why you should do something and they respond "To get X" and you respond "I don't care about X", and they protest "But you said you did!', and you respond "Well I lied"... that invalidates X as a reason/motivation. Right?
Sure. I think the difference for me is the US isn't actually saying that. We all agree that that's the fact of the matter, but in very real terms, the emperor is still pretending he has clothes on.

So in my mind it's still something that has value on the international stage, which is the context here, right?
Again, no. I acknowledge US blameworthiness/involvement in what Israel is doing. I have been debating with folks blaming the US in the sense that I'm asking about other countries roles, responsibilities, involvement and more importantly, probing the question of why the US should intervene.
If it helps, I think every country should be doing whatever they can, and I know a bunch of them - the UK included - regularly fall short.

But at the same time it keeps coming back to the US (for everyone, not just me) because of the size of their contributions.
in fairness... my first post in this particular thread was March 17th, yours was March 4th. I'm not going to go back and look at all the prior Israel/Palestine threads... my point is just that I've been participating in this thread/discussion regularly. You can't characterize me as someone who is "wandering in" and butting into your private conversation.
Well, you did characterise me as "stalking", so a mutual lack of negative characterisation seems fair.

I'll admit, these threads all bleed into one another for me. It's the same with the Russia one - my brain doesn't let go of the mental context as the situation is ongoing.
 
Hamas entered Israeli territory to do violence in the most unambiguous way
Hell no, they entered Israeli territory to take hostages and neutralise the Iron Dome. We know there were several incidents of Palestinian militants straight up killing civilians, but we also know the IDF was straight up killing as many or even more civilians, to the point that tanks were shelling homes and helicopters raining down gunfire on anything that moved. Why do you think Hamas is calling for an international investigation on 7 Oct but Israel is refusing to do so?
 
They don't care about your anti-colonialist leanings. The lipservice is just that - the charter is plain. Their self-stated struggle is not national self determination, but national annihilation, of Israel in particular.
That's what anti-colonialism is? The self-determination of an occupied people is dependent on the annihilation of the occupying power, or to put it in less scary wording, the dismantling of the entire oppressive system. This has been anti-colonialism everywhere in the world, and each time it was called terrorism
 
As a military officer, this thread is kind of hilarious.

Very entertaining to read the excessively confident assertions or some.
 
Working closely with journalists from Al Jazeera’s Fault Lines, Forensic Architecture collaborated with Earshot to examine the circumstances surrounding the killing of Hind Rajab, her four cousins, her aunt and uncle, and the two paramedics who came to her rescue.

Our investigation sought to answer the following questions: Where were the Israeli military vehicles located the day that Hind’s car was attacked? From what position and proximity was Hind’s 15-year-old cousin Layan killed after being connected by phone to Palestine Red Crescent dispatchers? Would it have been possible for the shooter to see Layan before killing her? What type of munition was used? From what position and direction was the ambulance shot? Could answers to these questions help us to identify the perpetrators of the shootings?
 
Again, Israel started this war in 1948.
We've had previous topics closed because people keep trying to argue this point. I don't see the purpose it it.
Hamas acted, and now Israel is reacting. The impetus to that was Oct.7

I'm sure you'll hear yet again not to rehash history from before most of us were born. So just a heads up...
 
We've had previous topics closed because people keep trying to argue this point. I don't see the purpose it it.
Hamas acted, and now Israel is reacting. The impetus to that was Oct.7

I'm sure you'll hear yet again not to rehash history from before most of us were born. So just a heads up...
Maybe people should stop presenting Israel's actions as some kind of unstoppable force that simply has to exist in perpetuity with no limit or restraint. That might help.

It's unfortunate because some people genuinely think that Israel does absolutely nothing in the regions they illegally occupy. Some folks aren't aware that Israel funded Hamas against the PLA as it served their interests in the region. Some folks don't know about all the peaceful / non-violent Palestinian efforts against Israel, nor how Israel have responded to them every single time.

A lot of this is directly related to the current conflict, and it's difficult working out who genuinely don't know and want to learn, and who are deflecting responsibility from the "only democracy in the Middle East".
 
We've had previous topics closed because people keep trying to argue this point. I don't see the purpose it it.
Hamas acted, and now Israel is reacting. The impetus to that was Oct.7

I'm sure you'll hear yet again not to rehash history from before most of us were born. So just a heads up...
Because every now and then someone comes up in these threads and tells us that Hamas just woke up on 7 October and chose violence for no reason
 
Again, Israel started this war in 1948.

1948? Why not go back just a couple of years and blame the Jews for surviving the Holocaust?

In 1948, Britain ceded land taken from the Ottomans during WW1 to Israel. It was Britain's land to do with as it pleased; the Jews (now Israelis again) had nothing to do with it other than traveling back to their ancient homeland. Before that I believe the area was ruled by the Kingdom of Egypt which was a British puppet state at the time, it wasn't Palestinian although ethnic Palestinians probably lived there.
 
I'm sure one can look back at any point in recent recorded history and go "aha, that's the reason for all this". But you'd only be drawing tentative connections where there are none. And they don't really serve the point of a news discussion thread.

Really what happened Oct.7 should shock the conscience of just about anyone, as it it was not in the least bit expected out of any rational person. Hamas' brains are operating on a totally different wavelength than any M.E. scholar or anyone who's not already them. If they wanted a justification, they would have found one somewhere...
 
Really what happened Oct.7 should shock the conscience of just about anyone, as it it was not in the least bit expected out of any rational person.
It was apparently planned multiple years in advance. There was a piece done on it near the time, showcasing the effort and forethought it required. I'm not sure your assertion (bolded) here matches up.

As for "shocking the conscience", innocent lives lost always should. I wish this was consistently applied, however, as there often seems to be an excuse for Palestinian suffering at the hands of Israel (not Hamas). Even blaming Hamas is excusing Israel's direct culpability r.e. their actions. Israel are undertaking this "war" by choice. The extent to which they're prosecuting it is by choice - nobody is forcing them.

Generally speaking, all I look for is consistency in a person's argument. Even if I disagree, or am in complete opposition, so long as I can demonstrate my arguments through consistent application of cause and effect, I generally find it constructive (for all participants).
 
Top Bottom