[RD] War in Gaza: News Thread

[Sarin]

Do you think it is normal to not sanction countries that assassinate foreign leaders as a matter of routine now? Because it does look extremely weird that some pretend Israel is just doing what everyone does, when it has killed high-ranking foreign officials and bombed third countries more than anyone else.

You really want to play the gotcha game? Then let me give you this one. Do you think it is normal to send aid to political and military entity whose goals, often publicly stated, even in its charter, are genocide, destruction of internationally recognized country and establishing theocratic regime, and has committed numerous acts of terrorism, kidnapping and even oppression of people it claims to protect in order to further its goals?

 

[Kyriakos]

You really want to play the gotcha game? Then let me give you this one. Do you think it is normal to send aid to political and military entity whose goals, often publicly stated, even in its charter, are genocide, destruction of internationally recognized country and establishing theocratic regime, and has committed numerous acts of terrorism, kidnapping and even oppression of people it claims to protect in order to further its goals?

So you are fine with not sanctioning Israel, because in a parallel universe Israel is under genocide by Hamas?

If countries can bomb third countries and kill any official they feel like, with impunity from the international community, you should realize what this leads to. In its current war with Hamas, Israel already managed to attack three other countries (Syria,Iran and Lebanon). That is not normal.

 

[r16]

israel has bombed 5 countries in one day , the echo chamber ı follow for news tells me . Nobody offers any proof , but politics require the delivery system to be an F-35 which then opens a new discussion of which one/ones of the solidly solid enemies of Israel opened the airways for the Israeli attack . And uh , the Israeli lawlessness will still avoid opening a new front in Europe just for the fun of it . Half of Israel is half Russian anyway .

 

[Sarin]

So you are fine with not sanctioning Israel, because in a parallel universe Israel is under genocide by Hamas?

I didn't say that. I'm fine with sanctions targeting Netanyahu and his cabinet.

We're not talking about parallel universe though. We're talking about Hamas, as it acted ever since gaining power in Gaza. That they haven't been that successful in their genocidal attempts, not for the lack of trying but due to their limited means, is irrelevant for this question.

 

[aelf]

The problem with the anti-Hamas/Palestine side is they're willing to tolerate the existence of Netanyahu and co, despite them being war criminals, but they can't tolerate the existence of Hamas.

 

[Kyriakos]

I didn't say that. I'm fine with sanctions targeting Netanyahu and his cabinet.

We're not talking about parallel universe though. We're talking about Hamas, as it acted ever since gaining power in Gaza. That they haven't been that successful in their genocidal attempts, not for the lack of trying but due to their limited means, is irrelevant for this question.

If some 2-year old kid threatens to kill you, whether they honestly wish to or not is rather irrelevant
Hamas, simply put, doesn't have the capacity to kill tens of thousands of Israelis. Israel already has killed at least 40.000 palestinians and is causing a famine. "If they could, they'd do far worse than we do" is irrational; of course people you murder will hate you and wish you harm.

 

[Lexicus]

All I said is that there's evidence for a will for lasting peaceful compromise among Israelis,

Yeah, so much will that they keep electing this Netanyahu guy for totally unknown and unknowable reasons...

 

[GeneralZIft]

Yeah, so much will that they keep electing this Netanyahu guy for totally unknown and unknowable reasons...

This comment cracked me up so hard

 

[Samson]

Struck by what?

According to media reports, the Hamas leader was killed when an “airborne guided projectile” hit a special residence for military veterans in the north of Tehran

Still doesn't answer it. Do they mean a "done" and it didn't get translated? A rocket?

This is the most I have read about it:

Yet Wednesday’s announcement of Haniyeh’s assassination marks a serious escalation not only in the war on Gaza, but also in the taut relationship between Israel and Iran. Israel, which has not formally claimed responsibility for the Hamas leader’s killing, has never attacked Iranian soil using projectiles launched from outside, despite a history of targeted assassinations and sabotage in Iran. Israeli media has reported that the missile that struck Haniyeh’s residence was launched from outside Iran — though Iran has neither confirmed nor denied the assertion.

The strike is certain to trigger probes among Iranian military institutions, as it appears it came unexpectedly and there were no reports of air defence activity in the lead-up to the assassination.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

crazy how opposing literal apartheid results in the "destruction of israel" @Sarin

 

[Gorbles]

I never wrote anything about endorsing assassination, this one or in general. I merely explained Israel's reasons for it.

You were replying to Kyriakos who said the following:

I also don't see how it can be argued that if one side doesn't like how the negotiations are, they can murder the negotiator/leader of the other side and see if the next one does better for them.
I mean, it's almost comedic to believe this.

You can call me whatever names you want, I don't mind. Your life is your own. But Kyriakos said "I don't see how it can be argued that Israel can do what it did". Your response is therefore arguing that they can do what they did.

If you're simply performing the purest logical routine devoid of any moralism nor context, then I'm happy to modify my previous statement:

You would in any comparable circumstance, explain why Hamas might do exactly the same thing to a high-ranking Israeli official, and you would do so in response to a forum poster asking how on earth such an action could be argued.

I look forward to it, in the harrowing event that Hamas decide to take a leaf out of Israel's book in this ongoing campaign which officials believe have garnered a death toll approaching 186,000, or possibly higher.

 

[Sarin]

The problem with the anti-Hamas/Palestine side is they're willing to tolerate the existence of Netanyahu and co, despite them being war criminals, but they can't tolerate the existence of Hamas.

You're trying to put words in other people's mouths. Watch it.

I have stated since the beginning, and you can find those posts if you try, that both Hamas and Netanyahu's cabinet have to be removed in order to make any peace possible.

If some 2-year old kid threatens to kill you, whether they honestly wish to or not is rather irrelevant
Hamas, simply put, doesn't have the capacity to kill tens of thousands of Israelis. Israel already has killed at least 40.000 palestinians and is causing a famine. "If they could, they'd do far worse than we do" is irrational; of course people you murder will hate you and wish you harm.

If it was supported the way many people here on Hamas' side want, they'd have the capacity. And even if Hamas succeeds in just killing hundreds instead of thousands, the fact remains that those who funded those murders share some responsibility for it.

I've bolded part of your post because it's important to note that this goes both ways. The violence and oppression between Arabs and Jews in the region has been going on, on and off, since at least 19th century. Sometimes Arabs had the upper hand, since 1948 it was mostly Jews. Even so, Arabs launched several full scale wars against Israel, the first beginning with Arab rejection of a two-state solution and opting for an invasion instead. Another ended up with Egypt pretty much dumping Gaza on Israel.
Both sides wish harm to the other because they've been on receiving end of the violence from them. The only way out, short of genocide of either side, is to break the cycle of violence, accept that both sides share responsibility here to some degree and work your way to the compromise that either side can live with.

Yeah, so much will that they keep electing this Netanyahu guy for totally unknown and unknowable reasons...

Y'know, there's more to politics than just the long Arab-Israeli conflict. To my knowledge, his previous terms were quite successful economically, and he hasn't shown authoritarian tendencies until his last term and attempted judicial reforms. His approach toward Palestine was, until Oct.7., mostly conservative, but far from genocidal.

It's worth looking at the issue before trying to make wisecrack comments, you might miss the mark completely.

 

[Remorseless1]

The whole dang war has been a war crime. Israel's allies look away just as much as Hamas' allies look the other way. No "good guys" here, just the civilians caught in the cross fire between Hamas and the Netanyahu regime.

 

[Gorbles]

You're trying to put words in other people's mouths. Watch it.

And when you do it?

The destruction of Israel, the way Hamas and Iran want it and you very much seem to be supporting, is genocide

Justified, I'm sure.

The whole dang war has been a war crime. Israel's allies look away just as much as Hamas' allies look the other way. No "good guys" here, just the civilians caught in the cross fire between Hamas and the Netanyahu regime.

The main problem with "both sides are bad" is, much like other conflicts worldwide, is that it ignores the power dynamics in favour of a version that doesn't cause any internal dissonance to the person promoting the theory.

Hamas arguably killed up to 1,200 people, and this was (rightfully) treated as a massive crime against civilians. Israel kill 30 times that directly, and something like 180 times that indirectly, and this is treated as quid pro quo? As something where both sides can be treated with the same level of admonishment?

Why? The actions are inequal. The government responses to both sets of actions are inequal. There is no equality to be found. "both sides are bad" is a line that favours Israel's status quo as they continue to cross red lines and kill citizens with (recorded, on social media) literally gleeful abandon.

It may "technically" be true, but it's only ever used to argue against posters in this and other threads who want to hold Israel to account for its crimes. Notably, Hamas (and Gaza) already is being. That's why Israel are dropping US-provided bombs on civilian refugee camps. That's Gaza being "held to account". Western governments are supporting this.

So, if "both sides are bad", where's the support for Israel being tackled in the same way? That sounds horrific, right? Unthinkable. Bombing Israel's cities into dust and killing tens of thousands of civilians? Utterly horrific.

It's almost like it isn't equal at all. That both sides aren't actually doing the same things in the same ways and having the same impact on the same innocent people.

It's almost like there's a difference.

 

[Sommerswerd]

crazy how opposing literal apartheid results in the "destruction of israel" @Sarin

Ending/reducing/sundowning racial, ethnic, etc., segregation, apartheid, and similar is always bemoaned as "the end of X as we know it"... which is kind of the point... but the country is always likely to survive the transition.

 

[Farm Boy]

Survivor bias does that.

 

[Remorseless1]

And when you do it?

Justified, I'm sure.


The main problem with "both sides are bad" is, much like other conflicts worldwide, is that it ignores the power dynamics in favour of a version that doesn't cause any internal dissonance to the person promoting the theory.

Hamas arguably killed up to 1,200 people, and this was (rightfully) treated as a massive crime against civilians. Israel kill 30 times that directly, and something like 180 times that indirectly, and this is treated as quid pro quo? As something where both sides can be treated with the same level of admonishment?

Why? The actions are inequal. The government responses to both sets of actions are inequal. There is no equality to be found. "both sides are bad" is a line that favours Israel's status quo as they continue to cross red lines and kill citizens with (recorded, on social media) literally gleeful abandon.

It may "technically" be true, but it's only ever used to argue against posters in this and other threads who want to hold Israel to account for its crimes. Notably, Hamas (and Gaza) already is being. That's why Israel are dropping US-provided bombs on civilian refugee camps. That's Gaza being "held to account". Western governments are supporting this.

So, if "both sides are bad", where's the support for Israel being tackled in the same way? That sounds horrific, right? Unthinkable. Bombing Israel's cities into dust and killing tens of thousands of civilians? Utterly horrific.

It's almost like it isn't equal at all. That both sides aren't actually doing the same things in the same ways and having the same impact on the same innocent people.

It's almost like there's a difference.

I agree that Israel, particularly Netanyahu and his war cabinet, should be held accountable. So should the leadership of Hamas. The numbers don't matter -- both sides commit crime, both should held accountable.

But nothing will be done to either side.

 

[Kyriakos]

But nothing will be done to either side.

Meanwhile, one side literally just had its leader murdered.

 

[REDY]

Hamas arguably killed up to 1,200 people, and this was (rightfully) treated as a massive crime against civilians. Israel kill 30 times that directly, and something like 180 times that indirectly, and this is treated as quid pro quo? As something where both sides can be treated with the same level of admonishment?

Treated as a massive crime against civilians by whom?
This is part of the problem. Westerners did not start hunting Hamas leaders; they just started to discuss whether it's good to finance them.
Russians and Iranians invited them as allies. Palestinians were celebrating.
If Netanyahu had decided to murder 1,200 Palestinians and kidnap others as ransom, he would be done politically. And if, in reaction, there were 30,000 Israelis killed, he would be in the jail. Nothing like that happened in the case of Hamas.
I am not suprised that Israeli society hardened.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am still unsure just when the shift happened to where apparently now it is just fine to assassinate foreign leaders just like that. Are we in a mafia global state?
Sure, US was doing it (Osama, Saddam, Qaddafi etc), Russia was killing some agents (ie not foreign leaders), but Israel is neither US nor Russia. Some leaders were murdered (eg poisoned) during WW2 as well.
If it is ok to kill foreign officials (sometimes not even during war), in foreign countries you are not even in war with, then what do you imagine will happen with non-middle-eastern leaders if they are tied to a war? Will they be spared for magical reasons or will it be different then?
Personally I am of the view that all that (and much, much more happening currently) are in a clear path to world war. I am amazed that so many people seem to be fine with it, expecting (it seems) that it won't harm them.