Joij21
🔥It's Joever!🔥
Okay the coming welfare cuts say otherwise.
And soldiers? How will you get them without conscription?
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[RD] War in Ukraine: Other topics
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
- Start date
Okay the coming welfare cuts say otherwise.
And soldiers? How will you get them without conscription?
Joij21
🔥It's Joever!🔥
Which ones are the "serious ones" from which you get your sources of information??
Verbose
Deity
The gracefil thing for Americans to do at this point would be to sit down and shut up about things they don't understand.
Joij21
🔥It's Joever!🔥
How are you going to fund an expanded military when your own countries are struggling to pay welfare? How are you going to convince a young generation of Europeans to fight and risk death when they have only known prolonged peace and nice things just given to them?
About Ukrainians also being aware that the Eu has neither a plan for peace nor a plan for war.
Giannis, however, is of the view that the war industry in the Eu isn't honestly geared towards producing any significant rise in ability to go to war - that is he views it strictly as a half-baked attempt to put a halt to mass de-industrialization in Germany/other (with tanks produced instead of cars etc).
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Verbose
Deity
Welfare states are extremely cost effective in investing in its own population. IF that investment does not pay off the dividends it can and should, then it is not effectively managed and needs reform – but the problem is not the welfare state. Mileage varies considerably across Europe, often depending on whether the systems have already been reformed or not.
Bad governance is bad governance – but Americans might need to look at the actual alternative to bad government to discover the difference. But instead they focus on entirely the wrong things, as usual.
I admit to being pissy and tired right now – but I can recall the last thirty years of Americans predicting DOOM for welfare systems over in Europe – and in particular when they get reformed to future proof them. (Pretty sure I could dredge up the threads from twenty years ago at this forum over the reforms to the Swedish retirement system, hailed as PROOF POSITIVE how impossible welfare society MUST be...)
The recent US-induced NATO collapse, which has the complication that even with a massive European military build-up for reasons entirely irrational on the Russia side, only the US has deterrence potential with the Russians – meaning the US shift in policy makes war with Russia very probable now – well, it's just the latest thing Americans latch on to to slag of Europe over, since that is probably the real rub, rather that actual welfare. That works, whether Americans think it should or not.
Verbose
Deity
Not as badly as the US is at the very least.
But Russia are the goodguys. The US is fine. Europe IS DA EVUL.
Joij21
🔥It's Joever!🔥
Well the European birth rate is declining. Maybe the migrants will both pay for the system as well as fight ala French Foreign Legion style.
We've been fighting for 30 years in a sand pit to no avail. The American people don't have anymore stomach for forever wars.
It's time for Europe to do the heavy lifting and pay it's own dues. (If it really chooses to do so that is, which of course I find highly unadvisable unless it wants to commit social/civilizational seppuku.)
Snowygerry
Deity
Well I told your ancestors back in the early 2000s that invading Iraq/Afghanistan was a bad idea, but they did not listen.
You should always listen to the Belgian, he knows what is best.
banzay13
Emperor
It was happen from the begging. EU (and US) didn't sent significal aid (actually, only one thing could really help Ukraine - using NATO air forces), but all time saying - look, dear Ukraine go and die, Russia will not hold more then half year. Just keep sending your mans to trenches and you'll see - Magic! Putin will lose his power, economy will be destroyed (we'll keep byu gas and oil, but it wont help Russia), rockets will be depleeted within 2-3 weeks. Just believe us, you dont need peace, you will win. And now - ops, that's all US fault.
Plan was from the begging - Magic.
Snowygerry
Deity
The object of any foreign policy is always to have all the foreigners killing eachother in a far away place - doesn't matter if they are Germans, Chinese, Russians or US Americans,
as long they are all foreigners, you will always win the war.
Let's not pretend that international politics is a love afair
as long they are all foreigners, you will always win the war.
Let's not pretend that international politics is a love afair
amadeus
オ前ヨリ平静〜
Whatever your thoughts are on aid, Ukraine is different because it is its own country that is fighting. In Afghanistan and Iraq, we were trying to build institutions from the ground-up. In some respects, direct intervention in Ukraine would be closer to Vietnam or the 1991 Gulf War—and just by those two examples the type of conflict doesn’t dictate whether it will be a success or failure.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
[/QUOTE]
What about Russia selling cheap gas to the countries that are helping Ukraine to kill countless Russians?
Yes, by declaring weaker side "good guys" and sending them aid.
Snowygerry
Deity
Ideally you support both sides and keep them fighting forever, like in WWII - that was a great war. Strategy is callous business, as any Civ player knows
It was part of the Eu masterplan to cause its own massive de-industrialization by having to import US lng.Ideally you support both sides and keep them fighting forever, like in WWII - that was a great war. Strategy is callous business, as any Civ player knows
Ideally, yes, but eventually it may become impossible or unfeasible, for example if weaker side will require too much support to withstand.Ideally you support both sides and keep them fighting forever, like in WWII - that was a great war. Strategy is callous business, as any Civ player knows
Verbose
Deity
The Ukrai
But generally, given what joys Russia offers to the world, through its many repeated cycles of aggression against its neighbors, it was no bar at all to clear for the Ukranians to be in the right here.
Blame Augustine of Hippo – he's the one who fingered aggressors in a war as the side in the wrong, Bastard...
But generally, given what joys Russia offers to the world, through its many repeated cycles of aggression against its neighbors, it was no bar at all to clear for the Ukranians to be in the right here.
Lest we forget even recent history, in the start of the war the Eu (Germany/France) wanted a quick peace. Prior to the start of the war (but after 2014) they co-signed the treaty of Minsk. And even up to the point Biden explicitly said that the gas-line from Russia will be taken out, Germany still tried to maintain it (because they were aware of what a multiplied cost of energy would mean for their industry).
The shift to "this is a war for freedom and we have to support Ukraine no matter what and prevent any peace which takes away more territories" came after all the above. More than just likely, it came as another power move forced on the core Eu by its now energy supplier. Then Trump came, and it is horrifying how Eu leaders act like he changed US policy - Biden already had diminished US aid and declined any entrance of Ukraine to Nato - but even more horrifying that some people actually believe the US has no state policy and acts randomly, thus they only have to wait for the next potus.
We are no longer in any of those stages. We are currently in a stage of botched moves to a war economy, to somewhat minimize the chasm which opened in civilian industry no longer profitable due to expensive energy. Some (including Varoufakis) argue that even the charade with the threats to use russian assets in the Eu etc to fund the rebuilding of Ukraine, is primarily because the Eu cannot use own assets for that in its current state. Not that 300 billion euros would be enough - even if that amount was available from the russian assets.
The shift to "this is a war for freedom and we have to support Ukraine no matter what and prevent any peace which takes away more territories" came after all the above. More than just likely, it came as another power move forced on the core Eu by its now energy supplier. Then Trump came, and it is horrifying how Eu leaders act like he changed US policy - Biden already had diminished US aid and declined any entrance of Ukraine to Nato - but even more horrifying that some people actually believe the US has no state policy and acts randomly, thus they only have to wait for the next potus.
We are no longer in any of those stages. We are currently in a stage of botched moves to a war economy, to somewhat minimize the chasm which opened in civilian industry no longer profitable due to expensive energy. Some (including Varoufakis) argue that even the charade with the threats to use russian assets in the Eu etc to fund the rebuilding of Ukraine, is primarily because the Eu cannot use own assets for that in its current state. Not that 300 billion euros would be enough - even if that amount was available from the russian assets.
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EnglishEdward
Deity
Germany has realised that it is, like the USA, losing its manufacturing base to China.
It wants an EU funded war economy to re-finance its manufacturing and to justify protectionism.
The French do too. And if Germany and France want that, Italy does not want to be left out.
And none of them want any of that EU money imagined into existence going to the UK.
Sir Keir Starmer supposedly extended EU fishing rights in UK waters for years as part of
his reset with the EU on the basis of a promise that the UK could bid to become an arms
supplier for the EU and EU support of Ukraine. However it seems that the EU has decided
that it will take the fish while trying to renege on that understanding. And the firm rumour
is that much of the fish that the UK consumes is coming from the Russian fishing fleet.
It wants an EU funded war economy to re-finance its manufacturing and to justify protectionism.
The French do too. And if Germany and France want that, Italy does not want to be left out.
And none of them want any of that EU money imagined into existence going to the UK.
Sir Keir Starmer supposedly extended EU fishing rights in UK waters for years as part of
his reset with the EU on the basis of a promise that the UK could bid to become an arms
supplier for the EU and EU support of Ukraine. However it seems that the EU has decided
that it will take the fish while trying to renege on that understanding. And the firm rumour
is that much of the fish that the UK consumes is coming from the Russian fishing fleet.
