1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

War mongering penalty for not accepting peace?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by twilson1972, Apr 28, 2015.

  1. twilson1972

    twilson1972 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    164
    Hey all

    Playing my first proper immortal game, it was all going well- i got a clear tech lead and had nothing to steal from anyone . The other way round in fact, i was having a nightmare with my spy failing to catch anyone.

    Until my 'friendly' neighbor attila suddenly declared war

    Luckily i had intelligence from william that he was plotting so i used my only 4 iron to rush frigates.

    So....i sank his navy and his army (but not before he pillaged all my trade routes) and he offered white peace and i accepted.

    He went straight back to friendly and we traded luxuries

    Roll forward literally one turn or two after peace treaty ended.. and hes there again, trashing my cargo and fishing boats

    So, i sank his navy again, and headed off to punish him, and captured his closest city

    Again he offered white peace, but i knew it would only last 11 turns or so and refused, and i just took his capital (now got massive unhappiness but thats another story)

    I made peace in exchange for his last luxury (all my frigates were redlined by then and my coast was a mess from his triremes pillaging)
    So...all justified right?

    So why do i have a warmongering penalty? Do you get classed as a warmonger for refusing peace even when the opponent repeatedly attacks?

    Thanks
     
  2. sikon327

    sikon327 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    2
    Warmonger penalties are based not only on declarations of war, but cities taken. You're not getting warmonger hate for refusing peace, you're getting it for taking his capital.

    Yes, even though he started the war.
     
  3. ToborajniN

    ToborajniN Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2015
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Sweden
    If you hover your mouse over an enemy city while having a military unit selected you will see a little text saying something like "You will get a minor warmongering penalty for taking this city". The "minor" will ofc vary, but it's a nice little something to know.

    Also: sikon327 is right. You got the penalty for taking the city.
     
  4. twilson1972

    twilson1972 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    164
    Thanks, ive always been the agressor in previous games so expected the warmongerer status in the past

    It seems a little unfair that im penalized for retaliating!, does the penalty fade

    Right now im the only one with frigates, i am tempted to scratch the science plan and just mass build frigates and privateers.
     
  5. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,458
    Location:
    4 Hexes from FoY
    Warmonger hate is calculated form warmonger score which is accrued with every DOW/city capture. The hate generated is different for each civ you have met as they will have different tolerances to warmongering. It is the warmonger score that decays and not the hate, which is 5 points per turn. Considering on average warmonger score is 20 times larger than the corresponding hate it will take 20 times longer for warmonger hate to decay than normal hate. Unless you liberate cities, recall civs to life(especially CS).
     
  6. twilson1972

    twilson1972 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    164
    Thanks phillip i appreciate the info.
     
  7. dasaard200

    dasaard200 Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2014
    Messages:
    313
    In my view, warmonger penalties are AI 'feel good' placebo's; because I'M winning, and they are NOT .
     
  8. poom3619

    poom3619 Ping Pang Poom!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,420
    Location:
    /r/civ battle royale
    Well, just because they declare war on you. Does it mean you can destroy cities and killing civilians when they have no soldiers left to be killed while turn deaf to his realization of mistake and desperate call for peace, and you keep a straight face and tell the world like you're doing nothing wrong?

    That would be in-universe justification of me., of how AI start (trying) to dogpile on player when player start to become powerful. It's a mechanics to make remaining AI become more of a challenge to player or else player would paint the map with their own color. This is sometimes occur in history.
     
  9. twilson1972

    twilson1972 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    164
    Your right of course, in this case though the situation was

    atilla attacks and destroys my poor fishermen, farmers and plantation workers-> i fight him off and accept white peace

    shortly later atilla attacks AGAIN, and i again accept white peace after a 1 sided war (im trying for science win)

    The third time it happens.... i decided ive had enough...

    But yes i get your point
     
  10. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,088
    Location:
    Iowa USA
    Which is stupid.
     
  11. twilson1972

    twilson1972 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    164
    What i did find absurd was..

    I took those cities around 300AD.

    For the rest of the game i turtled up, even gifted a luxury occasionally.

    Yet when the game ended 1500 years later- i still had the warmonger hate from 2 civilizations. I stopped checking in the last 50 turns or so maybe it went just before the end, but it was there over a thousand years / 200 turns later..

    That to me is daft?. It is like me hating french over the norman conquests...
     
  12. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,088
    Location:
    Iowa USA
    The diplomacy system in this game is horrible. I think warmonger penalties should last only to the end of an era. If I had my way I'd take them out completely. Then they have a guy like Shaka who is a warmonger, yet hates warmongers. The whole system is damn idiotic. There is no excuse for it.
     
  13. ThorHammerz

    ThorHammerz zzz

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    Messages:
    836
    I agree that the penalty decays far too slowly, and that certain combinations of aggressiveness and warmonger-hate-severity creates..... bemusing AI behaviours.
     
  14. feldmarshall

    feldmarshall Dictator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2007
    Messages:
    387
    Why? For example, Germany DoWed the Soviet Union in WW2. That doesn't give the Soviets a license to take over the whole Europe, right?
     
  15. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    1,887
    Location:
    Southern California foothills
    Civ V needs a "Just War" modifier to the warmonger penalty. If an AI attacks within a few turns of the ending of a treaty then taking one of their cities should incur a greatly reduced warmonger penalty or none at all. I've been in some games where taking an enemy city is the only way to get them to offer peace.

    Being forced into war has an opportunity cost in that you're compelled to produce units and change your specialist and citizen assignments away from other goals. Having to switch to war too often can derail your effort for anything other than a Dom VC. Combine that with the long lasting warmonger penalty and I often decide that if they're going to hate me then they can each hate me from their tiny new capitol - or not from anywhere.
     
  16. poom3619

    poom3619 Ping Pang Poom!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,420
    Location:
    /r/civ battle royale
    Warmonger hating is a feature to avoid human player to easily steamroll the map. I heard a counter-argument against Just War a.k.a. Casus Belli that human player will somehow exploit this and would reduce this anti-player blobing system into nothing.

    Say, if there are a something called "Holy War" or "Spread the Democracy". The diplomatic penalty will become nothing.
     
  17. NightflyUK

    NightflyUK Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1
    I've just recently experienced this and it seems like the warmonger hate is quite aggressive.

    Early on I declared war on a city state to steal workers on an immortal game and kept at war for around 100 turns to steal other workers and farm some XP. Later on, Monty declared war so I razed his second city then took his capital. While this was going on he settled one final city which I used to gain logistics on my Comp Bowmen and then razed this too, wiping him out from the game. Now this went on for around 50 turns and by the time I was done (around early Renaissance) everyone had now seen the "potential threat of my warmongering" and was hated/denounced by everyone, embargoed at the UN and eventually had every other Civ at war with me simultaneously.

    I'm trying to work early conquest into my game to try and avoid becoming a turtle power but if this is what I'm getting in the long run it hardly seem worth it. Even those that I had a declaration of friendship with became hostile almost immediately so it felt that because I was at war for so long and refusing peace the hate seemed to pile up a lot quicker.

    I've seen the formulas for working out warmonger hate and that there's supposedly a decrease for early war but this seemed excessive with Civs like Denmark and America fearing me after only taking 3 cities.
     
  18. feldmarshall

    feldmarshall Dictator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2007
    Messages:
    387
    Just war doesn't mean you can take everything. For example, the US didn't annex Germany, Italy or Japan after WW II.

    I think what's needed is the status of "occupying" a city, which means temporary controlling it to cripple the enemy without the intention to annex or puppet it (it will be returned after a peace deal). As of now, when you are attacked by a big enemy you're in difficult position. If you don't counterattack you can't weaken the enemy's war capacity, but if you do, you'll have to take their cities and take the happiness and warmongering penalty.

    Civ 5 need to be able to model what happened at WW II in Europe. During the war the allies occupied Germany and other European countries, but after the end of the war, most of the occupied countries were liberated and returned, even the territories of the losers.

    The Soviets decided to annex/puppet some of the territories, and they suffer warmongering penalty for that. But nobody got warmongering penalty for occupying Berlin and Rome.
     
  19. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,088
    Location:
    Iowa USA
    They sure took Berlin didn't they? I think it does give them license to take the civ's capital without penalty. Especially if they were declared upon. But it does not give them the right to then take over France as well, along with the rest of Europe. However, Germany should more than get what's coming to them. Which they did in the end.
     
  20. feldmarshall

    feldmarshall Dictator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2007
    Messages:
    387
    They occupied it, but did not annex it or make it their permanent territory. Hence my suggestion above, to distinguish "occupying" (which means the territory will be returned at the end of the war and no penalty if the war is "just") vs permanently "annexing" (which should be penalized). For example, if the US made West Germany its 51th state, they should get warmonger penalty for that even if Germany DoWed first.
     

Share This Page