War of Liberation (or lack thereof)

Hyspasist

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
25
1926 AD, the Siamese have embarked on a campaign of aggression against the Chinese, and various city-states in an effort to expand their own dominion. In a few short years, they control much of what had once been China and it's surrounding land. The military power of the Siamese hadn't been unnoticed by any means in the years prior, for the English had succumb to them and were no more a few centuries earlier.

Seeing this aggression leading to a frightening situation of Siamese control over a majority of Asia and Europe, the Greeks (yours truly) devise a plan to combat the might Siamese. Gaining support from both the Japanese and Ottomans, a counter-attack is launched and withing a few short years, much of the territory lost by the Chinese is regained and given back to China.

1946, the war goes well for the Ottoman/Greek/Japanese/Chinese forces and almost all of China's territory is regained. Suddenly without warning, China and Japan both turn on their heals and attack both the Greeks and the Ottomans. Still at war with the Siamese, the Chinese and Japanese now fight a war on two fronts with no hope of victory as both Greek/Ottoman forces now close on one side and Siamese forces on the other.

"Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up."

Despite fighting for their best interests, I seem to have had a bit of turnabout happen here. Either some other player bought off the Japanese and Chinese to turn on me when I'm clearly fighting for their best interests, or the AI can't properly differentiate between good war and bad war.

I truly did want to restore Chinese authority and presence in the area as I had awesome trade relations with them. Japan seemed to be a likely ally since they'd been in scuffles with Siam on and off for centuries. The war proceeds pretty well from there, the Japanese and Ottomans actually hitting cities that I was hitting, me managing to get in there and take the city and then give it back to the Chinese.

None of this is a complaint that I'm now at war with now three different countries. Japan and China are easily going to fold since they way behind in tech. I'm more curious as to know what mechanics caused two allies in a war against a much larger power than the three of us put together make them turn on me.

It makes me wonder how far behind the Turks are in comparison.
 
The AI can seem a little bit fickle. Hard to say why they did that without knowing the coding used by the AI for it's decisions. I've seen similar things to this on other threads.

It can be dependant on how trustworthy the AI thinks you are. (so renegeing on past pacts may encourage them to backstab you, even if it wasn't them you backstabbed).

Relationships with city states. (yours and theirs).

Where you're troops are in relation to their cities. (I'm assuming you're taking you're troops into their territory as you liberate them).

How close they think you are to winning (all civs will try to win themselves and may place this objective above their desire to simply survive).

I've seen some pretty illogical actions by the AI in quite a few walkthroughs.
 
Oh, and the Japanese really can't be trusted.
 
Let's see if we can decipher some of it. Here's the breakdown...

I was in second place in overall points sitting at 627. Augustus was leading me though at a comfortable 857, holding all of North America to himself after taking out the Iroqouis and another player (don't recall who exactly). I'm nowhere near a Utopia Project victory since I didn't focus on culture so much as I did getting my economy to really take off, Space Race is still a ways off for anyone, Domination isn't quite within anyone's reach but it's pretty evident that Siam is making a bold try at making it happen with their constant warring with anyone around them that isn't Siamese.

Really I think they were bought off by another AI. Whether the AI is actually smart enough to orchestrate such an event is beyond me, but it seems to be the most reasonable explanation I can think of. Well, at least beyond the point of the AI just being fickle as you stated.
 
I read a thread about how actions can affect AI attitude towards you. It may be that China was actually upset by you declaring war against the Siamese (even though they were enemies). This seems a bit buggy and illogical really. The Japanese really are that fickle: I've seen at least one example of them declaring war on another player who had been asked by Odu to join a conflict.

The AI isn't yet that smart concerning diplomacy. Your actions will over-ride comparative strength (unusual as the AI is in it to win).
 
Well the AI doesn't have feelings of thankfullness for liberating his land. 'Hey, now I have more cities, I can kick your ass'.

Seems to me like a more trading bug, I suppose you gave those cities back for free. This might have not improved relation too much, to the point they might consider you their friend.
 
Totally agree on how fickle the AI can be.

Played a recent map with three large continents. I killed off Germany early and had total control of my own continent. As soon as I could sail, I moved tons of troops over to Continent2, where I meet the Americans. We hit it off pretty well, trading luxury resources, making pacts of cooperation, and just generally being a couple jovial old pals.

A few turns later he suggests that we go curb stomp the Egyptians. No problem-o. Those pretentious monument builders stole my idea for a stone-megalith calendar. As I I start razing the outer Egyptian settlements, the Americans suggest that "while we're here" why not take out the Arabia? Sure, ok... they did't prove to be amenable trading partners anyway.

So with America's lone horseman and my ChoKoNu behind walls of steel longswordsmen I razed all the cities and annexed the Arabian and Egyptian capitals. Immediately Washington gets pissy. Says I'm "building cities" on land that is "his". I tell him to chill out and take it easy. Since I have plenty of space on my home continent, I leave Continent2 alone but for Thebes and Mecca. Washington continues to stomp his foot and fume though.
 
Before Civ 5 came out, they were talking about how the AI was going to play to win this time. Now, though, it sounds like the AI is just schizophrenic. (I don't have Civ 5 yet, so I'm just going by what I read on these boards.)

"Hello, my name is Wu Zetian. You liberated my cities. Prepare to die!"
 
I find the AI system clearly doesn't get the 'scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' So treat them like dogs. Just give them a bigger treat if you want them to war for you, and scold them when they try anything. I've learned more and more to go to war and destroy one city then accept their peace offering just to scare the AI into doing things I want it to.
 
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