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[GS] War Weariness -> Bankruptcy Death Spiral?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Alzadar, Aug 3, 2020.

  1. Alzadar

    Alzadar Warlord

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    I've had this happen to me in singeplayer and multiplayer now, and although it isn't exactly a bug, I feel like this can't be the developers' intention:
    1. A prolonged war causes War Weariness to get high
    2. War Weariness eventually causes such low Amenities in all cities that you get -60% to all yields
    3. Having -60% gold in all cities means you're going to have a gold deficit. If you don't have a large treasury saved up to avoid bankruptcy, you will soon be doomed.
    4. Once bankruptcy sets in and starts reducing your Amenities, you are now in a death spiral. Even when the war ends and War Weariness goes away, the Amenity reduction from bankruptcy keeps you at -60% gold (and everything else) in all cities.
    5. It's nearly impossible to get out of this situation. If you look at the attached image, you can see that even if I deleted ALL of my units, the expenses from my cities alone is enough to keep me in the red. This is with a Merchant Republic, and all possible gold bonus policies taken.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    And people say amenities are hardly relevant in this game :)

    I remember getting bankrupt once in the early days of vanilla, after too much conquering. It was still possible to sell units then, but even that couldn’t save me. All cities in revolt, spawning endless barb modern armours, who were pillaging everything I repaired. I quit that game... and never ever went bankrupt since :)
    Also, I made it a rule to check amenities and ww very regularly, and stop when the situation calls for it, before it is too late.

    Either have more economy, before you go to war, ample luxuries, or war more efficiently. Don’t forget to slot in the raid card and pillage districts and trade routes.
    Trade with other AI helps, but in duel or mp it is rather difficult.
    In your situation it is important to get some cash so that bankruptcy penalty for amenities would go away, and you could recover. Sell everything you can to Incas if they’re buying, or steal cash with spies. Also, more trade routes to city states could help turn positive.
     
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  3. Bitterman

    Bitterman Warlord

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    Wow I never thought this could happen to be honest.

    How long did that war take? Just out of curiosity.
     
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  4. Alzadar

    Alzadar Warlord

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    This was MP, so no chance of getting any gold from the Incas. I did manage to dig myself out by switching my trade routes from domestic to city-states, changing focus of all cities to gold, deleting a few units and putting all production into Commerical Hub/Harbor projects. Even with that, it took me about 10 turns just to get out of bankruptcy. Of course, as soon as I lose the amenity penalty then everything is fine again. Luckily I never spawned any rebels, I'm not sure what triggers that.

    Not too sure, maybe 15-20 turns? Long enough to capture Ollantaytambo, move towards the city to the south-west, and raze two Incan cities to the east with my privateers.
     
  5. Chefofrats

    Chefofrats Prince

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    20 turns seems much too short for war weariness to cause any trouble - I've had multiple much longer wars and they never caused any noticeable amenity issues. Also, you can't raze a city with a ranged unit like a privateer. Are you quite sure about the details of your story?
     
  6. Alzadar

    Alzadar Warlord

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    Could be as high as 25-30 turns I suppose. You can see my Caravel in the screenshot, kind of an irrelevant detail.
     
  7. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

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    In my book, the problem here is the treshold system for negative amenities. You don't feel them until you reach the tipping point and than it is (almost) too late. The OPs case is extreme and therefor this is a rare scenario, but it doesn't make the game design any better here. Better would be a gradual degrade of yields: -10% on all yields per missing amenity in a city. This would also help the AI, which is better able to cope with gradual penalties and benefits than with treshold managment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
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  8. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    War weariness mainly comes from losing units, not wars. If you lose too many units it'll be very high.

    This applies in real world, too. If you can get an easy victory without losing a lot of soldiers, your people will not be unhappy, only when you start losing soldiers will your people become unhappy.
     
  9. Galvatron

    Galvatron Warlord

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    I don't know why you'd assume this isn't working as intended, but it's absolutely how it ought to work.
    I'm not saying 'get gud', but you need to make sure you don't arrive at this point, or else you'll end up like czar Nicholas ii, Kaiser Wilhelm II, or Louis XVI: aboutt one foot shorter, that is.
     
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  10. Alzadar

    Alzadar Warlord

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    Being soft-locked out of doing anything is working as intended? In this scenario I'm literally bankrupt because I'm bankrupt. There needs to be a way to "declare bankruptcy" to lose the amenity penalty in exchange for some debuff.

    This wasn't a particularly bloody war, and I was winning. It's ridiculous for it to permanently cripple my empire.
     
  11. DrCron

    DrCron Prince

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    I won domination on deity several times, without ever having so many issues with amenities. Cities from the CIV you are at war with will get some penalties, but that shuold be it. And even those ones shouldn't be so bad.

    My guess is you must not be handling amenities correctly. If you go for long wars you need several luxuries, and eventually some well placed zoos and/or water parks. If you can get it before the AI, buidling the Colosseum in the middle of your core cities will be very good until zoos become available.

    Ideally your management of amenities should get all of your cities to happy in an early peaceful game, and even better later on (the maximum production bonus, can't remember the word right now). If this happens every time in your peaceful games, then keeping your citizens content in your warmonger games shouldn't be so hard.
     
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  12. Alzadar

    Alzadar Warlord

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    I'm pretty sure I had a copy of every luxury on the map. It's Duel so there aren't that many. My 10 copies of tobacco do me no good. It's too early in the game for Zoos.

    One thing I did learn is the the amenity penalty from bankruptcy scales at -1 Amenity per -10 gold deficit, so even if it isn't possible to eliminate the deficit, reducing it can get you out of revolt mode.
     
  13. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo Prince

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    Yield penalties from amenities do come gradually, it is not the game's fault, it is due to the OP's decision to completely ignore it until it is too late. Just counting the levels of lack of amenities, there are 4 stages to get to where the OP is, I highly doubt he did anything or even paid attention to war weariness until it reached the worst possible stage. Things on online speed (the standard of multiplayer games) scale twice as fast compared to a normal standard speed, so the number of battles happened in 25-30 turns could be equivalent to the number of battles in 50-60 turns on standard speed.
    Nothing is bugged, everything here is working as intended. The vast majority would say amenities are barely relevant not because they don't matter at all, it is because they are so easy to handle and unpunishing compared to civ 5.
    https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Amenities_(Civ6)
     
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  14. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

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    Thank for the correction :) The fact I wasn't aware about how close the game is here to my wished implementation only shows how rarely it is to have real amenity troubles - and the penalties for a slight deficit don't have too much weight in game when a healthy gold surplus is the norm.
     
  15. Galvatron

    Galvatron Warlord

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    Yes. Also I looked at the image, and I gotta say I'm surprised you're having trouble with so little debt. I was expecting you to be in the hundreds from the way you described it.

    Doubtless you'll be quite to find some good advice here to keep you in the black though. I'd the situation is as you say I'd had a guess that there's a lynchpin that you can fix to turn this situation around, don't worry.

    But the first defense is to not be in this situation.

    My first guess is that you're doing something's that rachet up the Weariness... what kinds of war is this? Who declared it?

    Again: Louis XVI

    There's a word for this: a pyrrhic victory.

    It's not permanent. You'll lose very quickly if you can't handle it. But there are lots of ways to avoid that.

    I'm on my phone so I can't type an epic, but if you give us more detail we can diagnose what to do differently to come back. But the key take away is that you need to avoid this at all costs.

    This is how societies crumble in game and out. Every past (Not modern times necessarily. I'm not commenting on current events maybe it'll work this time. Thirtieth times the charm) empire in real life melted itself trying to invade Iraq for no good reason, and blew up the deficite. Don't worry, people who should know better make the same mistake!
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  16. DrCron

    DrCron Prince

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    Only one copy per luxury will do anything, everything else shuold be traded. I've never been at negative gold, but to be fair I play mostly SP. I guess if you are playing MP and it's a duel map and you are at war it's a lot harder to get good trade routes (internal ones don't give so much gold), but with the military policy that reduces one maintenance gold from every unit it should be enough to be ok. You need to adapt your economy to the realities of the map.

    From your screen capture I can see:

    - You are going for refining, you shouldn't be far from zoos at this point in the game. Why do you only have 37 culture points per turn?
    - Madrid has power, you have electricity? How come having electricity was a larger priority than getting more than 37 culture per turn? That doesn't sound right.
    - I don't see many commercial hubs or harbors. You won't get gold without trade routes, even if you can only get internal ones.
    - Why do you have so many industrial zones? Why are there two industrial zones next to each other? Each city can only be affected by one factory, and workshops don't provide SO much productions to justify this IZ spam. Having so many IZs would only make sense if you wanted to secure great engineers for a scientific victory. But this is a duel map and you are at war, so clearly you are going for domination.


    Judging by what you are describing it seems like a lot of basic game concepts are just not being properly managed here. When playing correctly, war weariness is fairly easy to manage, even when you go for domination and spend more than half the game at war.
     
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  17. Alzadar

    Alzadar Warlord

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    I have the unit maintenance policy. If you read my post or looked at my expenses you'd see that even if I had no units at all, I would still have a deficit. Luxuries can't be traded away in a MP Duel.

    I have -60% to all yields, that's the whole point of my post. That includes culture.

    There are two Commercial Hubs in view, with a 3rd being built, and 2 Harbors. Seems pretty respectable for a 9-city empire.

    About the Industrial Zones... production wins games. Here they're both benefitting from the Plaza and Aqueduct adjacency bonus, so +8 and +6 production each with the policy just for the districts. Great Engineers are great for a number of reasons, not just science victories. You can see Magnus is stationed in Madrid too.

    You didn't mention my Civics, but I was going Scorched Earth -> Mobilization for the -2 maintenance policy (and combining into armies reduces costs), but maybe in hindsight I needed to rush Natural History instead. A Zoo in Toledo's Entertainment District would have tipped many of my cities from -7 to -6 Amenities, which reduces the yield penalty from -60% to -30%, and would probably get me out of bankruptcy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  18. Josephias

    Josephias King

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    Nothing particular to add to the thread, just thanks for sharing as this is something we often do not experience in a game against the AI, but a duel against a human player is a completely different scenario.

    Just needed to post to say it's just funny you proposed that in a game you are playing with Philip II, who declared up to four bankrupcies and, indeed, had to deal with quite a bit of internal strife too
     
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  19. Alzadar

    Alzadar Warlord

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    A fun thing I learned about Spain this game: your Conquistadors get their strength bonus from a friendly religious unit on the same tile, even if it isn't of your founded religion. And since you can't initiate theological combat against a unit of your own religion (or condemn it), once the Incas converted one of my cities I was able to make invincible escorts for my Conquistadors. There were several times before we realized this where my opponent tried to fight my missionaries only for his apostle to walk onto the tile with me instead.
     
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  20. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    It is the developer's intention, as it should be.
    War is a costly business, always has been, always will be.
     

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