War Weariness Details

[Gothmog]

I have been lurking around this site for a number of months and I have found no useful information about the details of War Weariness. Thus, I decided to start a thread describing my recent experiences and asking for the input of others.

The solo game I am currently playing is at Deity level on a standard map. Everything else was random, I was given Greece and there are lots of islands.

Early in the game I wiped out Rome, who was on a small island with me . I made extensive use of my hoplites to destroy their infrastructure, take slaves, and sit on all the iron on the island. I colonized all the smaller islands that I could reach and then had to wait for Astronomy to find any other civs. Of course they found me first. By the time I met with them they were way way ahead of me . I played catch up for a long time, meanwhile Persia and Babylon conquered all the other civs except Egypt who was on an easily defended peninsula. Soon Persia and Egypt wiped out Babylon with Persia getting most of the spoils. I did sneak a settlement onto the major island and got some gems. I was about to catch up with Persia (in techs and production) and was considering my next move when they went from gracious to attacking me without warning . We had been trading two for two luxuries and so I immediately had happiness problems (I was in a democracy). I brought in Egypt on my side and focused on keeping my gems settlement. I decided early on that I was going to try to stay in democracy because otherwise Persia would get tanks during my revolution and wipe me out. Thus the stage was set for a war of at least 20 turns (my deal with Egypt) in democracy. I define an increase in war weariness as an increase in the number of turns between increases in war weariness. Here are some of my observations.

* Having naval units in Persian territory did not seem to increase war weariness.

* I refrained from using Artilery for anything other than defence (in my games I only get one shot at attacking units no matter how much Artilery I have in my city, what up with that?) as much as possible but when I did use it to cut his supply roads from positions within my territory I did not notice any increase in war weariness.

After 10 turns of war I was running Luxuries at 60% and I saw the first Persian Tank . I managed to steal a couple of tech advances from Persia (I got three from one espionage mission, I was not expecting that) including Motorized Transportation.
[dance]
I decided to try to raize a couple of his cities just to put the hurt on him and noticed that...

* Attacking Persian cities did not seem to increase war weariness as long as I did not leave any units in his territory between turns.

* I did not use Artilery against any of his cities but I did use it extensively against units of his in range of my cities and again did not notice any increase in war weariness.

Then on turn 12 of the war with my luxuries at 70% and me loosing a few gp each turn with no research and starting to loose hope... Egypt made peace with Persia. I immediately made peace with Persia too, they even threw in 500 gp! Of course egypt went from gracious to cautious even though I had done nothing. I decided that the only way for me to gain on Persia (they had all the good wonders upto this point except TOE). Was to invade Egypt and take all their luxuries and Bach's. So I moved my forces into position, declared war and to my surprize.

* No war weariness!

I was really expecting lots because I declared war and because there were only two turns between my war with Persia and my declaration against Egypt. I have now been at war with Egypt for 4 turns and still no war weariness! Is this because they are much smaller than I? because they betrayed me. I have no idea.

Well that's my story...

Comments? Additions?

Thanks to any who read this, my first post.

 

[Hades]

In my experience, war wariness is direct relation with the number of units I lose. Once it increase, even if you stop fighting (without signing a peace treaty), war wariness will stay at the same level. Also, if the I only take one city at a time without losing any units I can go on war forever under democracy.

 

[Yzman]

You might not get war weariness but after around 30 turns democracy always fails and revolts I think.

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Hades
In my experience, war wariness is direct relation with the number of units I lose. Once it increase, even if you stop fighting (without signing a peace treaty), war wariness will stay at the same level. Also, if the I only take one city at a time without losing any units I can go on war forever under democracy.

Apparently this only applies to war with the same civ. I had heard reference to this effect (war weariness increasing right back to the same level) in other posts and this was another reason why I was so surprized when my declaration of war on Egypt brought about zero war weariness.

The issue of not loosing any troops is one I will keep in mind and look out for. Would this apply equally on offence and defence?

 

[Catt]

War weariness is still quite the mystery - I haven't seen any detailed explanations of how the various factors interplay to produce growing levels of WW. On the subject of losing units, though, I am not yet convinced that this has a demonstrable effect. One of the "named" causes of WW is engaging in battle, and I suspect that losing units generates WW as much due to being at battle as due to losing (or winning!) battles.

I came to this conclusion after two similar experiences in different games. In each case I was far inferior to the aggressor nation, and was fighting a defensive war of attrition in the time of infantry but before tanks (both games were also under v1.21 when AI tanks were a relatively rare sight in any case). The warfare consisted of massive numbers of enemy infantry pouring over my borders, followed by massive bombardment by my artillery, and mopping up some of the wounded while other wounded retreated to heal. Over the course of some 20 or so turns of this, I lost very few units (most of my activity was bombardment) but I had (in large doses) two of the three factors that the manual indicates increases war weariness: (1) enemy troops in my territory; and (2) battles (the third factor being my troops in enemy territory). Also in both cases, my democracy was eventually overthrown - in one case with virtually no warning, i.e., I had no instances of civil disorder and needed very few entertainers -- my populace was far more happy than unhappy, nonetheless, revolution.

Pasted below is my post on WW from another forum site - I still haven't seen anyone provide answers to some of the questions I posed then. There must be someone with a burning desire to "crack the code" of how war weariness works, right?

******************

Originally posted elsewhere in May:

I haven’t yet seen a thread on the intricacies of war weariness (“WW”). WW just seems to get mentioned in passing in posts under other topics. Has anyone developed any exceptional knowledge regarding WW, its causes, effects, counter-tactics etc.? (by exceptional, I mean beyond the basics ) Has anyone undertaken any studies to try and “break the code” of how war weariness works (as etj4Eagle did with his wonderful "only one great leader per elite" research posted on CivFanatics?) I for one would very much like to have a better understanding of the intricacies of WW. Any help appreciated.

To start it off, I’ll list some of the basics, as well as some of the questions I’ve got. My quick and dirty list of the basics:

* WW is caused by being at war!
* WW affects only representative governments (democracy & republic)
* WW accumlates over time, causing incremental unhappiness and, if unchecked, a revolution by your people
* WW accumulates more quickly if:
- You have troops within enemy territory
- Your enemy has troops in your territory
- You declared war
- You are engaging in lots of combat
* WW does not go away upon peace; it decreases over time following peace – so a new war shortly after a brief interlude of peace does not give you the benefit of starting with your WW ‘bank’ at 0
* WW bank can “go negative” (war thirstiness? ) when war is declared by AI, creating a short-term happiness boost
* WW manifests itself as unhappiness, so all the general tactics to combat unhappiness are applicable to combatting WW (luxury acquisition, marketplaces, happiness producing improvements wonders, luxury spending on the tax slider, creating entertainers, etc.)
* The Universal Suffrage wonder slows the accumulation of WW

Some of the questions I have, but to which I haven’t seen answers:

* Does the destruction of your units / cities / improvements increase the accumulation of WW, or is the anecdotal evidence of greater WW upon these events a result of the “engaging in combat” and “troops in territory” factors?

* Does military success on your part slow the accumulation of WW, or is the anecdotal evidence of lesser WW in such situations a result of the “troops in territory” factor (i.e., you’re in enemy territory for short periods – it soon becomes yours! )?

* Does the number of civs with whom you are at war affect the amount of WW accumulating?

* Is the "declare war" factor clean and simple, or more nuanced, affected by the following factors:
- Whether or not you are forced to declare war through the operation of an MPP after an ally is attacked
- Whether or not you are "forced" to declare war by an AI repeatedly breaking treaties (i.e., crossing your territory, which the manual indicates can be viewed as a treaty breach)
- Whether or not you "force" a declaration of war by repeatedly engaging in espionage / territory breaches / tribute demands in an effort to goad the AI into war.

* Does WW accumulate more quickly if you sneak attack, abuse a RoP, attack an ally or generally do any number of other things deemed harmful to your reputation with other AI?

**************

 

[gugalpm]

I think that the war weariness really goes to zero when you make peace. I was fighting a long war in industrial era and had to ask for peace because of war weariness. After the peace, all my cities went back to full work. Two turns later I rallied my tanks for more fighting and stood more time than before winning the war...

 

[Gothmog]

Re gugalpm: Was all of this war against the same civ?

As I noted above the war weariness I had in my war with Persia did not transfur to my war with Egypt (or was reduced due to their betrayal and my subsequent attack).

I have played a few more rounds of this one and I negotiated peace with Egypt after 6 rounds of war. Then I brought in a couple of armies and redeclaired war. It seems to me that I picked up with the same war weariness I had when I ended the war with Egypt.

 

[gugalpm]

yes...
I'm pretty sure that my war weariness disappeared in the turn I signed peace...
Maybe it depends on the government... mine was republic...

 

[Yzman]

the war weariness will come back if you redeclare war before the 20 turn peace treaty is over. This is so people cant exploit thes ystem and just sign peace for one turn to make it go away then redeclare war.

 

[civ_steve]

As Republic, in GOTM XI, I've been at war with ... two other civs for centuries. We've only had a few encounters (I plan to change that soon ), and I've experienced NO war weariness.

In this same game, I'd taken a few cities from ... one of the other civs, and then declared peace. Later on (more than 20 turns) I redeclared war, and those cities with their citizens became quite unhappy, but my own cities were fine.

In GOTM IX, as Egypt, I'd been at war with Japan for a long time. I had taken a city from them, which they took back the next turn. That caused a lot of war weariness!! Many turns later, America declared war on me (they signed a MPP with Japan). Three turns later I finished off the Japanese. All my war weariness went away, even though I was still at war with America.

Just some examples. IMO War weariness is not well defined and behaves rather oddly.

 

[slothman]

WW does go away when you declare peace. I can go from 53% approval to 79% just by making peace with all my rivals. It can even get pretty high with republic and suffrage.

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by Hades
In my experience, war wariness is direct relation with the number of units I lose. Once it increase, even if you stop fighting (without signing a peace treaty), war wariness will stay at the same level. Also, if the I only take one city at a time without losing any units I can go on war forever under democracy.

That doesn't explain it all. My WW went to considerable levels (6 unhappy faces in a 12 size city) when I left 6 artillery and 1 infantry in China's land for a single turn, despite of not having lost any single unit, and not being the agressor...

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by civ_steve

IMO War weariness is not well defined and behaves rather oddly.

I wouldn't have said it better by myself!!! WW is a very weird stuff. You never know if you'll suffer from it or no

 

[bbaws]

In any non combat war I get zero WW provided I don't let them stay in my territory, don't stay in their territory, don't lose units. The best description I read of WW in a fighting war went along the lines of "WW is a bucket that empties slower than it fills", if you get into another war too soon after declaring peace you get a lot of the WW from the last war hitting all at once. Quickly and efficiently winning battles and territory can eradicate war weariness. At the end of the day if you go to war be ready to take the licks.

 

[gugalpm]

If you are in war with another civ, obviously, their citizens are going to become unhappy... read the manual

 

[Hades]

I had wars that went on for centuries without a gun being fired and never got WW. You have to start the actual fighting for WW to show up (defensive or offensive). Losing units will increase the rate of WW (not sure if the number of enemy units destroied have any affect either). I usually measure the % of unhappy people that was caused by WW to get a good picture of how sever the WW problem is. The number of unhappy people is kind of deceiving.

 

[ukrneal]

War weariness is sure a wearying topic!!

As I understand it, weariness is separated by each civ. I mean by this that you can war for Persia a while. make peace, war with Egypt and then start all over because you are fighting a new civ. Even if you are still figting Persia, war weariness with Egypt would still begin from zero.

The hard part for me is figuring it out when you are fighting multiple enemies, some of which you attacked first, others of which attacked you first. It gets really complicted. I have noticed that as long as you are winning, it rears its ugly head slower than if you are losing (which is natural, I guess).

By the way, I have seen people pop up a screen that shows what percent of the population are in war weariness. How do I get that screen to show up?

 

[slothman]

As a somewhat offtopic remark I switch to anarchy during my war and my approval rating went up because there was no WW. Obviously my people like no government better.

 

[Gothmog]

Re Catt: Thank you for a very nice post. You ask the right questions and provide some info as well.

* I am pretty sure that losing a city causes an increase in WW. That is, I had WW increasing about once every 5 turns. Then I lost a city and had an immediate bout of WW when I didn't think I would have one for a couple of more turns. Also because I lost the city between turns I could not adjust my luxuries to compensate. I took the city back the next turn, and my rate of increase didn't seem to have increased (still once every 5 turns). Freeing the expatriots may have given me some negative WW, pushing me below the threshold that losing the city had put me above. This is the only time I have seen winning combat decrease my WW.

* I am pretty sure that military sucess does not decrease WW. If I am being careful not to leave troops in enemy territory (and keep them out of mine), it does not seem to matter if I take over enemy cities or not. I am not 100% sure of this but there is no large effect.

* I think evidence is accumulating that WW is separated by civ. So it is an additive property, I have seen no evidence that there is any additional penalty for simultaneous wars.

* I am pretty sure that you get a bit of negative WW if another civ breaks a treaty with you. In my example above (with Egypt) I didn't get immediate WW from my declaring war on Egypt who had broken a pact with me against Persia. This implies that the same would be true for an AI civ. If you break a pact with them, they get some negative WW to use in an attack against you.

Re Evincar: I agree that it seems to be enough just to leave troops in enemy territory (although this does not seem to include ocean or costal territory). I think this is also true for enemy troops in ones own territory. Once I was keeping WW down by not leaving troops in enemy territory, I had like 5 turns between increases. Then suddenly my WW increased after only two turns. A close check of the map revealed that one immortal had crossed into my territory on a remote island that I shared with Persia. I had three infantry in each of my cities and this was no real threat but my WW increased nonetheless. I think if I had killed them before ending my turn I would have had no increase in my WW.

Re ukrneal: I agree that WW is separated by civ. See my example above, and the one given by civ_steve above.

I am not convinced that winning combat decreases WW. I am also not convinced that engaging in combat alone increases WW. The key seems to be troops in enemy territory, and enemy troops in ones own territory.

IMO one reason why WW seems to behave oddly is that it is a rate of increase in unhappiness and things that affect it change the rate of the rate of increase (they accelerate the increase). So I think that a certain act (declaring war on a peaceful neighbor) gives you a certain value of WW (which coresponds to a specific rate of increase). Then other things (troops in enemy territory, enemy troops in your territory) will increase your WW. It seems that there are thresholds, i.e. a certain value of WW coresponds to a certain rate of increase - say 100 WW = per 5 turns and then 150 = per 4 turns. Thus some acts will increase your WW but not your rate of increase in unhappiness.

Given Hades post and some other info - it seems that if the inital act does not trip the minimum threshold you will not get an increase in unhappiness although you do have some WW.

Some questions I still have:

* The effects of Artillery - I think that the only time Artillery comes into play is if you kill enemy citizens durring city bombardment. Non-city bombardment does not increase WW, and it seems that even city bombardment does not increase WW unless you kill civlilians.

* Does time at war increase WW? I had thought that it did (eventually leading to revolution). But some of the posts above suggest that it does not. It may be that the chance for revolution is again a threshold effect.

Thanks to all involved in this discussion. I think some progress has been made (at least in my understanding).

 

[Gothmog]

Also I agree with Hades that the # of unhappy citizens is mostly irrelevent. That can increase from a number of factors (size of cities, city improvements etc). A better measure of WW is the % you can access by clicking on an unhappy citizen.

I tend to pick a smallish (8-10 citizens) city that is not growing (or growing slowly) and is not building a city improvement that will affect happiness, then I can see an increase in WW just by looking at the # of unhappy citizens. This method is not infallible however.