War Weariness Details

[LeroyJr]

The WW certainly adds a little something to this version of the game. Some of it is pretty whacked and unrealistic in my mind though.

I am sure the example used was of the '60 US during Vietnam when the people were tired of some war going on over on the other side of the world for cause's they were not certain of. That is one thing.

I am also sure that during the '40's when Germany was bombing the hell out of London the people of England were also quite weary of the war but were not out striking and having protests over "being tired of the war". You know what, we are getting the hell bombed out of us, so how about you suck it up and go crank out some weapons so we can fight back better. Hitler most likely would have "refused to acknowledge their envoy" anyway had they wanted peace.

In my current game the Persians have declared war on me twice for no reason outside of they generally are first class a$$holes. Persian romp 35 knights and Immortals onto my border city and my little French babies get upset about that. Well they should be upset that some hostile outside force is about to eliminate one of their cities and work twice as hard to produce munitions to fight them off. But no, they would rather have little entertainers so they can sit at home on welfare and not worry about the war. Meanwhile the Persians are still coming and refuse to acknowledge my envoy. In that case there should be no war weariness, we are defending our home country and right to exist.

After a Japanese war and another with the Persians in which both were beat back soundly I tried to set up a spy in Persia to keep an eye on those jerks. Persia once again declares war. This time my cities go directly to civil disorder. Sure maybe I was wrong trying to spy on Persia but the reality is we are now at war and I need production or Persia will take us over. Stupid thing anyway. If your home country is under attack there should be no WW just resolve.

The Persians refused to ever talk to me again after the spy incident so I had to reduce their pathetic civilization to ashes to get out of the war.

It is strange how people can get weary over a war in which you are romping over the other civ. I could see attrition or a close battle or losing ground but when you are romping and totally have the other civ on the ropes your people should not revolt over it.

I also think that they need a 4th specialist that cranks out an extra shield in times of war to produce military weapons for the war effort. War mobilization means you should not only create military units but get them cranked out faster because everyone is working on just that. Your 30+ cities would be quite effective in war efforts anyway.

 

[LeroyJr]

I also love those cities that go into WW to the extent that they are starving to death. Boo Hoo. If you don't want to work. you don't need to eat and then you starve to death. Not sure wether I should have pity on the welfare losers that just want to strike when there is a war going on.

 

[Gothmog]

Re LeroyJr: I agree that there should be some additional way of allowing for the fact that another civ declared war on you and is on the warpath. The only way this is handled in the game is that you do get some initial "negative" WW when another civ declares war. Of course this is quickly erased by the presence of lots of enemy units in your territory. It would be a good addition to get a reprieve from that source of WW, at least a reduction.

I believe that in mobilization you do get an additional shield from any square already producing a shield.

Lastly - never trust the Persians. They will often attack you without warning, from Polite, with multiple trade deals, just to get one of your luxuries or a city that is nearer to their core than to yours.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by LeroyJr
I am also sure that during the '40's when Germany was bombing the hell out of London the people of England were also quite weary of the war but were not out striking and having protests over "being tired of the war". You know what, we are getting the hell bombed out of us, so how about you suck it up and go crank out some weapons so we can fight back better. Hitler most likely would have "refused to acknowledge their envoy" anyway had they wanted peace.

During WWII, Germany and France fought the 'fake war' before Germany invaded. They declared war on each other, but didn't do any fighting at all from Sept 1939 til May 1940. French soldiers were tired of being activated for no reason. There were riots and strikes because of it.

Also, when Germany invaded France, refugees caused major problems. Trying to get out of the way of the invaders, millions of people pulled up stakes and caused problems clogging up the roads. I'm sure it affected their economy as well.

So in some cases, rather than thinking of it as war weariness, just think of it as 'refugees'.

 

[Gothmog]

Correction: I just briefly looked over the War Accademy's "fundamentals of mobilization" and it says:

"During a war-time mobilization, your cities that are producing attackers or defenders generate extra shields"

so not all spaces produce extra shields. I just wanted to be clear. I have never mobilized myself, I'll have to try it sometime!


Also, as far as justifying WW, even in a successful war the people at home get tired of seing all those bodybags come home from overseas.

 

[LeroyJr]

I was not aware of the extra shields in mobilization before. Thanks.

I think oversea's and far flung wars, successful or not, would create some war weariness. Wars that are expansionary or defensive in nature should create less because of their nature.

Do WW effects vary from Civ to Civ?? I would think that an expansionist or militaristic Civ should have less WW because of the nature of the Civ. A militaristic/expansionist civ should not mind being at war as much as say a scientific/religious civ would. Does anyone have any idea on this?

 

[Gothmog]

Re LeroyJr: an interesting point. I have not noted any differences, but it would be hard to tease this one out.

 

[Portuguese]

I have not noted any differences either.

But I should. Great Idea. Maybe in a future PTW patch...

 

[Hades]

Mobilization doesn't make much difference if you have a factory and a power plant in your cities (instead of making a tank 3/turn, your are getting away with 2/turn). If they let you mobilize earlier in the game then maybe it will prove more valuable (making a knight in 3 turns instead of 6).

 

[billindenver]

Mobilization has been very handy for me at times. E.g., you are stuck with minimal resources, and have a weak army. You discover Nationalism, and can immediately mobilize, creating a quick strong defensive army of riflemen, even with NO resources or factories. It's a great catch-up tool. Of course, you have to either be in or about to get in a war, because the only way to get out of mobilization is to get a peace treaty.

 

[Evincar]

Billidenver: I think you can do that in peace time, then renegotiate peace with someonle else, which is easy now you have a good army, and that stops your mobilization.

 

[billindenver]

Yes, I've done it before during peacetime. Then I declared war on some puny civ 1/2 way around the world, and ended it a few turns later without ever fighting.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Gundam
my experience: ww is directly dependent by the number of offensive units u have on the enemy teritory...so the larger the number of your atacking units the bigger ww will be .In republic if u fight a defensive war u can fight the war for unlimited time without getting ww as opossed to the ****ing democracy in which if u have just only 5 units in enemy teritory u'll see 40% ww in all of your cities after just only a turn .

I tried to force WW in a PTW pbem scenario. I have been fighting a war for 40 turns. I am a democracy, lost over 50% of my cities and many units, but zero WW! So it seems to me that losing cities does not increase WW. And you may be right about fighting a defensive war never causing WW.

I'll put my units in his territory to see if I can get WW.

What we need is an experiment to test, for example, whether my troops in enemy territory causes WW. So far, I have not been able to do anything to cause WW!

NOTE: "Stop the aggression against our mother country" is not WW! You can get this kind of unhappiness with despotism, which never gets WW. Maybe some of the theories about WW confuse this "mother country" unhappiness with WW.

 

[sumthinelse]

Update: I put all of my offensive units (modern armor and tanks, about 50) right next to the enemy capital for a dozen turns. This after 40 turns of war as democracy. Still no WW. What do I have to do to get WW?

Another update: I declared war as a democracy and had units in enemy territory for 30 turns. No WW!

Update #3: I created a similar scenario using the same .bix file, but this time I create a single player game. Now WW is easy to get! I declared war as a democracy and then put a bunch of units in enemy territory. Bingo! Instant WW!

I believe that firaxis has disabled WW in pbem games. It kind of makes sense in turnless or simultaneous games because you already have plenty to keep you busy -- but in pbem games?

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Hades
In my experience, war wariness is direct relation with the number of units I lose. Once it increase, even if you stop fighting (without signing a peace treaty), war wariness will stay at the same level.

I think this WW may be caused by having units in their territory or them having units in yours. I got WW from just having enemy units in my territory. I never lost a single unit but still got WW.

Also, if the I only take one city at a time without losing any units I can go on war forever under democracy.

Yes. Leaving my units in enemy territory for even 2 turns can cause WW.

 

[Gothmog]

I think that having Universal Sufferage reduces the WW due to having units in enemy territory.

In my most recent game I delared war as a democracy and went to work on Egypt. I was able to sustain units in their territory for some time with little WW.

This also makes sense based on the meaning of universal sufferage.

 

[sumthinelse]

Has anybody seen WW in a multiplayer game?