War Weariness

[Karpius]

This question is for those of you who know how to dig into the guts of this and understand its mechanics far better than I.

How exactly does War Weariness work and how long should it take before it dissipates in peace time?

Right now, I am nearly 500 turns into an Industrial Era start. All research is complete. Domination Victory only with unlimited turns. I am playing America against Aztecs, Russia, Kongo and Arabia.

Late in the game, Kongo and Russia declared war, which lasted some 30 turns and NO loss of cities on either side. (I should write about that in another thread). America, however, did take several city-states in the process.

Now, the war has been over for at least 20 turns but the War Weariness is rampant. Every turn, another city or two (or three) is spawning rebels which pillage any repairs I was trying to make.

I have been earning negative GPT since the end of the war and can't seem to get it turned around.

Any thoughts out there? Comments?

 

[Victoria]

You war earyness should have gone by now.... are you sure it's down to this, not lack of amenities? The city report screen should show the difference. Once rebels start spawning they start wrecking your luxuries which continues to snowballl.
Never dug into WW, I thought people had identified this area already. In the logs there is a war weariness file as well but as said I suspect yours is down to too larger pop for your entertainment

 

[Karpius]

Amenities and population are certainly part of the issue, but even after a hundred turns, the War Weariness 'value' in the report seems the same. That said, many of the cities have since changed from 'revolt' to 'displeased' or 'unhappy'. I can recognize some the causes, but the duration seems incredible.

Later, I will post the latest save for folks to gander at if they like.

I would also add that this game sort of contradicts many of the claims about 'easy' games, or the AI not building units (especially air units).

Personally, I have found this to be my most challenging game yet. As well as my longest.

 

[Victoria]

That said, many of the cities have since changed from 'revolt' to 'displeased' or 'unhappy'.

Are you still at war? War weariness significantly decreases with peace. I will have a little look tonight and on the we and summarise my findings to make it clearer, most of the settings are in the global parameters file.
If you can place a save here ... unmodded I hope... I can always have a look but the report should show war weariness sperately and it should go down with total peace.

 

[Karpius]

I will post two saves that are a number of turns apart for comparison...quite some time since hostilities.

I find it more fascinating and challenging than annoying, but it does have me curious nonetheless.

Also, no mods whatsoever.

This is the same game I posted earlier concerning carrier based fighters not deploying on patrol. But that was before any warfare.

I suppose most people might have let this game go by now, but I can't bring myself to.

 

[Victoria]

Great, I'll play a turn and get some clarity from the war weariness log as to your value and options to reduce it.
There is some bugginess around the AI forgetting you are at peace that also may be affecting you., anyways.... it will be interesting to see regardless.

 

[Karpius]

So here I have three saves, with a little bit of backround....

Industrial Era start, Domination Victory only, no turn limit, playing America.

There was a very early war against Arabia and Saladin managed to escape at the last minute with a settler to continue Arabia at another location. I chose to accept peace then rather than continue the war by chasing that new city.

Some time after that, things were getting crowded so America declared war on Aztec. Not a very long war and I accepted peace when Aztec asked, but America had managed to take a couple cities before that.

Immediately after that, both Russia and Kongo declared war on America. With Russia and America being on the same continent, the war was concentrated there. Kongo, however, did threaten some of the far flung American cities with dozens of Modern Armor Corps and Infantry Corps. In those territories, America was terribly outnumbered and used a couple of nukes to turn back the invaders. After some twenty turns, the war ended with none of the main antagonists losing any cities, however, America did manage to take a few City States allied to Kongo or Russia.

I would like to mention that both Russia and Kongo made good use of bombers, especially Russia, but neither seemed to have any air defense at all. They were definitely aggressive and quite numerous, but more focused on attacking units than attacking cities or pillaging improvements.

There have been no wars since turn 651. By turn 749, it is still quite the challenge to improve the population's happiness.The first save is immediately after peace was declared. Forty turns later you can see that there's been no real change in war weariness. Fifty-eight turns after that, cities are still in the "unhappy" range, though there are marginally fewer revolts.

So whoever wants to give it a look, have at it!

 

[Victoria]

Slow testing but some things that currently appear as theories.

WW is not scaled on Era
WW is not applied for barbarian or City State combat
WW is not applied for declaring,looting or taking cities
It seems to be applied for major civ combat though peace weirdly can include City states which leads to exploit.

You attack or defend in your land you get 25 WWP ("WAR_WEARINESS_PER_COMBAT_IN_ALLIED_LANDS" Value="1")
You attack or defend anywhere else you get double - 50 WWP ("WAR_WEARINESS_PER_COMBAT_IN_FOREIGN_LANDS" Value="2")
If you loose a unit you additionally get triple 25 ("WAR_WEARINESS_PER_UNIT_KILLED" Value="3")

... so my warrior attacks an Archer and kills it, The archer is in its own land and I am not in my lands
I get 25 x 2 (foreign lands) = 50 WWP
They get 25 x 1 (own lands) + 25 x 3 (dead unit) = 100
If they were in foregin lands it would be (25 x 2) + (25 x 3) = 125

Every turn both sides get -50 WWP if we are at war wether we attack or not
If I was at peace with everyone it woul dbe -200 WWP per turn.
If you make peace you each get -2000 WWP (it can never go into negatives)

So weirdly... I declare on France and Amsterdam
I get WWP if I fight french people but not from Amsterdam
When I make peace with France... they get -2000 WWP and I get -4000 WWP

Which city gets chosen to recieve these points and when?
Well it does seem to be at 400 WWP - "WAR_WEARINESS_POINTS_FOR_AMENITY_LOSS" Value="400"
Which go when you drop below 400.

I still need to test which city which will take some messing around... But I believe it is a weighting based on the parameters
"WAR_WEARINESS_LOSS_OVER_REQ_AMENITIES_AT_WAR_CITY" Value="3"
"WAR_WEARINESS_LOSS_OVER_REQ_AMENITIES_FOUNDED_CITY" Value="0"
"WAR_WEARINESS_LOSS_OVER_REQ_AMENITIES_NONFOUNDED_CITY" Value="1"
How it assesses closest for a variety of similar distance cities and what other non parameter values are involved I do not know. I suspect size is a subcategory... so a % or WW spread based on pop

I have to test this in a real scenario as I do not trust firetuner if there is a possibility of home cities involved.... I cannot see any evidence of this but there is anecdotal evidence out there.

@Karpius I suspect it may be down to bankrupcy (which may be down to spies)... in the city summary screen bottom right in the screen where you rename a city it will tell you why you have lost amenities.

 

[Victoria]

So whoever wants to give it a look, have at it!

OK so its late here but I have had a quick look.... Your reports page shows pure war weariness

If I run through a turn the logs shows me this whioch does look broken although I am saying that cautiously as I am just learning this area.
You are getting an at peace decay from 3 players but only giving it to two.
Also there seems to be some attacking going on with pplayer 12 giving a stupidly large delta WW and the decays look very odd too.

Firetuner shows 12 as the Aztecs but normally the major civs are initialised before the minor ones.... was Monty killed of at some stage in the past?

Finally looking at the combat log for those combats... monty is attacking with a Jet bomber against something... perhaps a missile cruiser?
The point is the combat log shows the target civ as -1 ... it does not exist and it looks like your civ iis getting the blame as 0 is the closest.
Definately looks screwed to me.

I can see why you do not want to give up the game....Nice spies

 

[Karpius]

@Victoria ....Fascinating analysis, thank you!

I have to ask, where does one find those logs? Is that through Firetuner?

Monty was never killed off, however, on at least two occasions Monty used bombers against rebels surrounding cities formally under Aztec rule.

Could the defending civ (-1) be the rebels?

I have to admit, I find this all incredibly interesting and in an odd way, adds to the flavor of the game for me.

I also find it interesting that this game, at this stage, seems to fly in the face of the complaints about the AI never building units, let alone using air units.

Perhaps I will try taking out Monty all together and see what happens.

Again, thank you very much!

 

[Archon_Wing]

I think war weariness is broken after a certain point. I remember one game where I tried playing after I won... Some of my cities were stuck at -10 with rebels spawning, while other cities were at +4. What was that? (Saves are gone though)

I took a look at the save (turn 691)

If you want to save your GPT, it's pretty easy; just take the policy that gives gold for international trade routes and then run whatever projects generate gold in some cities. I also set all the cities to starve, since the best way to get rid of unhappy people is to starve them to death. And New Deal can help as well.

You also might want to consider selling a city or two to a random, especially the semi-large ones on the islands. As long as they don't interfere with you taking enemy capitals, it's not too big of a deal, you get gold for a bit, and you can always take it back.

Once Estádio do Maracanã finishes it should be mostly fine and you can start putting back your red cards in.

And yes I spent a lot of gold on bombers, but I figured you'd need them anyways. This is also why I don't like growing my cities so large though.

Oh, and I didn't notice, but you're taking arsenal of democracy and have none of your trade routes are actually going to any allies. You're probably better off with Gunboat Diplomacy. Use it to gain more envoys so you can become suzerain of more before going back.

You also have the army to just end the game. St. Petersburg is within bomber range and on the coast so just bombing from San Antonio and having about 2 destroyers take it from the coast is easy. Kongo will be a bit harder. Easiest is to bring carriers up north and take that city north of his capital, and at that point it should be over before they can react. 8 bombers + several tanks (or helicopters) should handle it quickly)

 

[Victoria]

@Karpius the logs are standard and loavated in My Documents/My Games/Civilization VI/logs
Every time you start up the game it zeroes them out so you have to run at least 1 turn.
Yes, could be the rebels but they are weird numbers, I'll have to check it out some time in another game with rebels.
The analysis I did is the simple view, there is also some very odd numbers that appear and odd behaviour.

Nice analysis @Archon_Wing

 

[Karpius]

@Archon_Wing ....thanks for the save! Going to store that as a sort of alternate history for this game and as a comparison to where I've gotten so far. Starving my citizens (ala Stalin) is not my favorite idea, but seeing what happens could certainly be informative.

@Victoria , you have been most helpful....which only means I will likely be picking your brain in the future.

 

[Victoria]

I will likely be picking your brain in the future.

Feel free.... I think I am going to create another thread on this as the subject seems not to have been investigated at all well.
Further investigations shows the weariness number increasing with something, likely time at war.