War with RB

[2metraninja]

And since it started, despite we are not yet in war officially, I think a new thread for this is required.

Those are some pics from the front and around:

Spoiler :

Poly - RB front:

CP - RB front:

Spoiler :

Our units advance West:

Spoiler :

Cities builds:

Spoiler :

And here is a first- hand info:

Ot4e: hi

Ot4e: can you tell us where is WC?

2metraninja: yes
663 from Indira
havent moved yet this turn as far as I can tell
nothing moved on the western front too still
I looked at the situation, you will lose quite a units this turn
8 catapults
Ot4e: we will see
2metraninja: like 11-12 unita
if you had all your 10 rifles there, then no
Ot4e: lol
if I could have 10 rifles by this time
2metraninja: good move to bring all warriors and scouts there to take collateral too
ah, so MZ is not send all 10?
Ot4e: they are slow, we got 4 more now, but they are in costalot so far
he also couldnt bring more earlier
2metraninja: yes, I guessed sowhat about the
with galleys
Ot4e: i make many tests though
about their chances
they are not so confident
2metraninja: and? your stack holds OK?
yes
I know that feeling
when you see an opportunity, but want to preserve your army and not put everything on one battle
and since they are attacked by many enemies, they will want to preserve units
you did very good job actually, were the knights defending in most of the battles?
Ot4e: yes we came to the conclusion that we wont have better chance to get rid of their knights. With knights alive our further advance was very argueable so as MZs
but I estimated much worse result
2metraninja: yes, knights are serious power
Ot4e: well, losing like 2 cuirassiers more
but still
2metraninja: I saw your damaged units, it was not bad battle
and you did respectful job eliminating their mobile corpus
like 350K power they dropped I was told
Ot4e: yes we will drop too, but it is very luck dependant for them
they will have a series of 35-65% battles after catapults slightly growing up
2metraninja: plus, we as a group increase rapidly units and power, where they cant keep up with us
when we hit them with 60-70 units in 4 turns they will feel the real heat
35-65% is like coin flip
Ot4e: still lose 7-8 cata to kill 5-10 cuirassiers
2metraninja: yes, lose all their artillery
Ot4e: and not confident chance
2metraninja: lose few muskets maybe too
so pretty drawn out battle
I am a bit concerned about BbB, but I cant see the situation there
Ot4e: the best result for us if they try to take it back right now
so it is a bait
Изпратено в 10:35, петък
2metraninja: lol, I love bloodsheds. in one game we have huge stacks against our enemies and we both throw artilleries and cannons, but all our units are damaged to 50% and their cannons cant do a thing, they cant even attack, and our 50% MGs still have odds against their wounded infantries
so they just stay there and we decimate them slowly
oh, so you have stack for the ambush?
Ot4e: there are 12 units there
2metraninja: I have read somewhere - Klausevits maybe? that the general who keeps his reserves the longest, he wins the battle
Ot4e: so it will take them all to hit it
and will allow us to save most of stack
which makes real threat for them
2metraninja: I see
plus they cant hit with catapults
Изпратено в 10:38, петък
Ot4e: yes they will have to hit full hp units. Not to say that much of those can really defend. There are only 2 good defenders. But if they attack they probably lose this group completely
Изпратено в 10:40, петък
2metraninja: depends on if they are desperate already
if they are not, they will want to keep their units
Ot4e: So my estimations are the following:
- 75% that they will hit our stack
- 20% they retreat and wait for reinforcements
- 5% they try desperate attack on brick
2metraninja: I would say more like 60%-40%-0%
again, it is dependant on how desperate they felt now
their WC observing our endless cannons, muskets and knights move west wont help them see the future bright I guess lol
Ot4e: I take in consideration that they may be just willing to exchange units at any rate, because feel that they can produce enough
2metraninja: hmm, they can out-produce you, but what about the rest of us?
Ot4e: letting us to heal 20 cuirassiers wont give them feeling of security in the back
2metraninja: that is true too
Изпратено в 10:45, петък
Ot4e: our chances are not that bad, as you said at the beginning. Very wounded cuirassiers are mixed with the healthy ones. Warrior stack also So catapults are not very effective. And they dont have enough to kill all.
2metraninja: yes, they lack numbers to finish
depending on how well promoted their catapults are too
btw, were their knights not yet fully promoted?
Ot4e: they had promotions only on 9, so we had pretty good chances for the rest, like 88%
2metraninja: they kept them unpromoted
Ot4e: i checked several scenarios and promotions on catapults are not really important
2metraninja: not expecting you to make this bold move
Ot4e: they produced some unpromoted knights
like 2 coming to finish our stack
no promotions at all
about those in stack I dont know if they were blank or they tried to keep promotions. Need to ask my co-captain
Изпратено в 10:53, петък
2metraninja: yes, you have numbers, .5 damage each, 4-5 units collateraled by each of 8 catapults makes for like 20 hpts distributed over 20+ units. of course, the 5 str hit from direct combat with catapults will be a factor too for the best defenders
Изпратено в 10:54, петък
Ot4e: this is one of the main factors, how lucky they will be with direct damage from catapults
their collatterial will do nice damage to warriors anyway
2metraninja: yes, if your 2 rifles hold the line decent
yes
I do this a lot too
1/3 my own siege, 1/3 normal army and 1/3 old units to soak up collateral damage
oromos upgraded to infantries are nasty btw
with 4 FS promotions they kill artilleries without almost no damage in the direct combat
Ot4e: and suffer reduced collatherial
2metraninja: 4-7 first strikes...
yes, they do
Ot4e: bad thing that we dont have a single catapult there
2metraninja: yes, after their knights are all gone
Изпратено в 11:00, петък
Ot4e: and one more reason they may be willing to continue exchange is GW
for those ~ 50% battles they will receive 4 points of experience, bringing 12 points into GG generation each
Изпратено в 11:03, петък
2metraninja: might be
but they already had few GGs, so their next is not so soon I guess
Изпратено в 11:06, петък
Ot4e: did you track how much they've got?
2 for sure
got 3?
Изпратено в 11:19, петък
2metraninja: I can check
but I think 2 too
Ot4e: I think it is not that important
Изпратено в 11:21, петък
2metraninja: is GT considered a wonder and stay if city is captured?
Ot4e: no it is razed
2metraninja: I never experienced such,
hmm.. one of my lieutenants offered me 2 beers bet on it
Ot4e: hmm
i am not 100% sure
2metraninja: the same who won 10 beers last time about is it random who gets the WW
Ot4e: may be it is only razed if you already control one
2metraninja: yes, this is what he said
Ot4e: this can be checked too easy
2metraninja: academies I remember capturing, but NW never
yes, it can
Ot4e: academies yes
2metraninja: one thing he dont know is if it is checked for razing like market for example
Ot4e: for this I can even bet beer
not random
Изпратено в 11:28, петък
Ot4e: it is still like dividing the skin of the non-killed bear
2metraninja: we say: the fish is in the sea, but we put the pan on the fire to fry it

 

[Arkipeller]

It's getting exciting!

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, interesting indeed. In 4-5 turns will become even more exciting.

This chat we had today with Bistrita. It have general topics too, but most of it belongs in here:

2metraninja:
anything interesting?
Bistrita: nope
well i researched number closer
and rb has near 1200k power left
its 1192
2metraninja: yes, 1200k
Bistrita: they had like 1470
so its more like
2metraninja: so less than 300K
but still a lot
Bistrita: near 280- 300k
2metraninja: yes
if ot4e and MZ take away 300K power each turn from them RB, we might not have any RB soldiers for us to fight when we join
Bistrita: i was wondering how that ot4e was capapble to atack those knigs
2metraninja: well, it seems RB let those in front of the city
and after RB culture from Brick collapsed
he jumped in to the breach
Bistrita: aha
so they didnt expected city to falll
2metraninja: most of the culture there was from Brick
maybe not
or at least they did not expected culture to collapse
I've seen veteran players to forget about this
Bistrita: they wouldnt let the knigs there
and man they cheked alot
of players someone should have seen it
2metraninja: if they expected the city to fall?
Bistrita: yep
2metraninja: then the other question comes - how they did not saw that the city will fall?
Bistrita: if our city falls we are in range
well thast mine too
perhaps ot4e got realy lucky
2metraninja: which our city?
he said he got lucky
but not much
2 cuirrassiers survived which he expected to die
Bistrita: i was saying how they think
2metraninja: which is not game changing
aha
well, it seems they somehow underestimated the situation
Изпратено в 17:05, събота
2metraninja: looking more on the map, my bet is exactly this - they never thought of Ot4e coming after their main knights-muskets stack
Изпратено в 17:07, събота
Bistrita: and my question is they couldnt be there in time to defend that city?
theyr most important asset
2metraninja: I can answer this 100% sure. they were there last turn
I know, because I made screenshots for Ot4e
Bistrita: so a first huge mistake?
2metraninja: I just checked the map, they were not even protected by culture
Bistrita: or they cut a deal with ot4e?
2metraninja: they were just sitting there like sitting ducks
simply no one expected ot4e to attack those
what deal?
Bistrita: ot4e
2metraninja: to let him kill all of them?
Bistrita: gets 2-3 cties
but why loosing that much?
2metraninja: no way for deal
the guy is honest
he was like: "I hope you appreciate what I am doing"
not only he is honest, but he is brave too
Bistrita: well nice maneuver killing all those knigs for sure
to bad he didnt had more units to finish the stack
2metraninja: I can bet my money/beers on that RB simply never expected him to come for this stack
Bistrita: he would had 90+ oddds
2metraninja: yes
Bistrita: they didnt
2metraninja: he said he had problems only with initial few promoted units, then 80-88% odds
Bistrita: but then theyr minister of war is very weak
to not see all posibilities
and lose that many knigs
Изпратено в 17:13, събота
2metraninja: yes, who knows who is in charge of the team
is this information that SUlla is out of the game sure?
Bistrita: yep
i read that
2metraninja: sore loser
Bistrita: i dont have experience with sulla
2metraninja: he was great when killing poor Germans in 2vs1
2metraninja: and when he sees the defeat he sounds the retreat

Bistrita: i am sorry now
i dint started a serie of muskets
near rb border
5-6 5 exp would have benn great
but i dint had too much time
when we was in ga
Изпратено в 17:27, събота
i was thinking what rb done wrong
they were too agresiv with their neighbours
Изпратено в 17:37, събота
2metraninja: yes on both muskets and RB wrong ways
but we can still have muskets
it is not that late
few will be OK
and RB was douchebags to each of their neightbors
as I said in the beginning of the game, this game will be decided on the negotiation table and just then on the battlefield
and I said that RB failed miserably in one very important thing. making friends
and this will cost them the game

Bistrita: i hope so
next turn we should sent 2 knights
our barb city
2metraninja: we have no knights there
must return
or send xbows
Bistrita: then a drafted musket?
2metraninja: or draft couple of muskets
yes
maybe 1 cannon?
Bistrita: good experienvce
2metraninja: 85% chances will be too bad to lose
Bistrita: man if wasnt war with french
2metraninja: and we must start 1 settler somewhere in zululand and whip it next turn
Bistrita: we will had been far beter
2metraninja: to settle the coast east of barb city
damned french will take that spot with galley
hoping for the peace to save them
we are still OK
Bistrita: we are
2metraninja: we are doing well
Bistrita: for an atacked nation
2metraninja: if we dont make stupid things, we are in great condition
Bistrita: just 50 less food
or 60
2metraninja: I already start to worry for when we will become number 1
it is not far
and I do hope that we have this NAP with French to t210
and gradually increase our NAPs with our allies
Bistrita: some longs naps will help alot
2metraninja: so we 3 are the last to stand
Bistrita: firts rb must go down
will be not easy
2metraninja: we will be the ones with the most pop and cottages if we end up with 3 of us only
and yes, first RB must go down
but I am optimistic
RB is doing what is in our best interest
Bistrita: in my opinino they whiped to few
2metraninja: separating forces
Bistrita: for the actual situarion
2metraninja: well, they might whip more now
Bistrita: a bit late
2metraninja: if they manage rifles
Bistrita: not having units togheder
2metraninja: will be different
maybe they kept their commerical centers to be able to tech to rifles
yes, this is important - not having units together
in my experience, this is not how you manage dogpile
to spread your forces
you concentrate
hit like hammer
and move on to the other threatened front
you lose some cities in the process, but you survive
Bistrita: they needed more cats
a cat for every enenmy unit
2metraninja: and not to left being hit with cuirrassiers
Bistrita: well tha was a seriuos blunder
2metraninja: yes
serious
very serious
I dont know to give credit to ot4e or to give black point to RB
maybe both
because it took bravery for Ot4e to see and take the opportuniyu too
Bistrita: ot4e must been said oh yeah
2metraninja: and to get the counterattack
he will lose some 10-15 units this turn too
Bistrita: to bad he didnt had more units to cover
2metraninja: yes
well
Bistrita: but i think its all what he has
2metraninja: it is good beginning of the war
Bistrita: we are second in power
2metraninja: and when we come with 70 more units, this will break if not their spirit, their backbone
Bistrita: i dont get how
2metraninja: yes, we are
dont know either
must think about it
we can ask in the demohacking thread
Yossa is online I see, he will tell
Bistrita: and next turn will crack the whip again
2metraninja: yes, crack the whip
to scare our enemies to death
Bistrita: so another 150k power

 

[Bowsling]

Cue the Star Wars Imperial March! Can't embed YouTube from my phone, sadly.

Also love that CP named their rifleman It is a good day to die. We should do similar things when we go to war. Give them a message something along the lines of "While defending, your archer was killed by a CFC ninja!". Strike fear in their hearts.

 

[YossarianLives]

Bistrita: we are second in power
2metraninja: and when we come with 70 more units, this will break if not their spirit, their backbone
Bistrita: i dont get how
2metraninja: yes, we are
dont know either
must think about it
we can ask in the demohacking thread
Yossa is online I see, he will tell

Do you have any recent demos screenshots?

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, each turn they are stored in the dropbox. So sad FTW is not working and not a foreseeable chance to be repaired

 

[2metraninja]

I was not sleeping in the meanwhile too and managed to arrange a loan from our allies to help us get as fast as possible to Military Science so we can whip Pinch Grenadiers to have odds against RB's drafted rifles. If all is good we will get Grens in 5 turns from now.

 

[talonschild]

Eeeexcellent, kudos. Grenadiers will certainly be a nice touch to RB's new rifles.

 

[vranasm]

I always felt that grenadiers are underestimated in civ universe... but in SP everyone is hot on mounted these days, so that's probably why

 

[2metraninja]

Grenadiers are tricky. The are somewhat easy to get to with bulbing Chemistry as we did. Biggest drawback to them is they are not draftable. And that they generally have lower str than both rifles and cavalries. As for why they are not popular in SP, it is because in SP it is the human who usually attacks and the grens are not a typical attacking unit.

 

[2metraninja]

In other new, RB attacked ot4e's stack. It was drawn-out battle, RB losing 18 units, cats included, and Ot4e lost 9 units. This would had been great, if RB's potential to reinforce were not greater than Ot4e's.

 

[2metraninja]

Both Ot4e and MZ had asked me some time ago to make sure we capture this National Epic city of RB - Eastern Traders because a GP was going to be born in it very soon. Ot4e believed it will be about t178 when he is about to be born. I assured them we will do so as it was looking RB cant do a think to stop us and we had the time to move our slow moving steam-roller-like army and take it despite all RB resistance. But now, he said it will be t176 - just a turn after we declare war. Our slow-moving army cant capture the city in time. So we must come with a good plan and take that city on t176. Because we will play before RB, we will be able to kill their newborn GP if we are able to capture the city.

Any ideas are welcome how we do this. We are already working on some plans with Bistrita, but I think we must do it at all costs for so many reasons.

1. We deny RB a GA (or we compromise them in the eyes of their new allies Uciv (RB might have promised this GP, which they promised to us to them. To prepare the soil for compromising RB, I will send a letter to Uciv telling them RB are not the most reliable allies as the sore experience from WPC shown, as RB promises a lot of things, but they dont fulfill their promises)

2. We hit their morale. Imagine the weeping, screaming, cursing and despair in their forums if we kill their GP

3. Maybe most important - we raise our allies morale. This one is very very important.

And fourth, both ot4e and MZ asked me to not allow RB have this GP. We will show muscles and we will show we are trustworthy allies who do even the impossible to do what is supposed from them to do.

What you guys think?

 

[vranasm]

for taking city 1st turn of war you need 2-movers...

if you can post SS of the area I could more of help, but I don't think I would get better answer then 2-movers...

 

[2metraninja]

Spoiler :

Here is the map for the front. Bad thing is Eastern Traders is actually 3 tiles from the border. The GP will be born most probably in t176. We will take first half of the timer, so we will play before RB in t176, which means the GP will most probably be born, but will be sitting in Eastern Traders. Currently we believe there is only a single axe in it. But RB will get Rifling in t 175 and they might upgrade/whip/draft more rifles in it. It have 60% culture defense and is situated on a hill for cumulative 85% defense. We will have like 20 knights, 20-25 cannons and 20+ muskets in the first turn of the war.

 

[vranasm]

too bad forbidden point isn't 1 tile more east...

question is if we move 2 movers on the plains tile bellow corn (or what is is) 2E1S from forbidden point
and the cannon stack with "couple knights" 1SE from the spot (so the knights are in reach of Eastern Dealers)
if we will trick them in thinking that Forbidden Fruit is main target and the knights are as stack protection for cannons...

the point of such trick is so that they don't build 6 rifles stack in Eastern Dealers

Knights against Rifles is really really bad scenario, but I am afraid we don't have many options only tricks will help.

Another option is capturing Forbidden point and our allies getting Covenant in time so they can only launch GA with the great person? and who knows if they have it as possibility.

I think forking is the only option here and some trickery.

Moving along the mountains so it will look like Forbidden is main target can be such trick... it will force them to choose anyway...

 

[2metraninja]

I agree that we must find the best way to deceive them and we can not expect to take Eastern Traders if they know we will try to take it with knights.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Or With spies we could revolt the city. With multiple Spies and enough espy points we could do it multiple turns in a row. IIRC this will halt all GP production. Can anyone confirm? IIRC this will also prevent whips and drafts. We only need to do it enough times to get our units in position to take the city. Do we have any Spies in the area? Can we generate enough espy on them to do it?

I dont see anyway to take it by turn 176 without a 3-Move promoted Knight. Do we have any way to make such?

At first I was thinking to build a city on the coast and chop a Galley to attack by sea, but those are all jungles so no chops

With 2 spies we could also simultaneously poison their Water and Make unhappiness in the city. With a 8 faces and 8 faces we might be able to slow down their production enough to delay the great person.

 

[Bowsling]

We can probably just take it if we can revolt it. I don't think forbidden fruit has the culture to keep that road, so we can just move our knights straight out of Lokapara and take/raze it.

 

[Sommerswerd]

This chat we had today with Bistrita. It have general topics too, but most of it belongs in here:

Bistrita: but then theyr minister of war is very weak
to not see all posibilities
and lose that many knigs
Изпратено в 17:13, събота
2metraninja: yes, who knows who is in charge of the team
is this information that SUlla is out of the game sure?
Bistrita: yep
i read that
2metraninja: sore loser
Bistrita: i dont have experience with sulla
2metraninja: he was great when killing poor Germans in 2vs1
2metraninja: and when he sees the defeat he sounds the retreat

Almost forgot about this...

The idea is not to have a cake walk over RB. The idea is we take 2 or 3 border cities, CP takes 2 or 3 cities and MZ can maybe take 1 if he is lucky. RB is not destroyed, but they are crippled, and we have huge Army on the border with them so they cant take their lands back. Then we can turn our attention to how to face CivFr.

Now here is where the human psychology comes in... RB is proud. Their players are a proud bunch. I will bet 1 beer that when all 3 of us invade RB and cripple them that their best players will lose interest, seeing their careful plans disrupted. They will say "Oh well... Technically we won, but these guys have to dogpile us to beat us so I am satisfied that we are the best... I have lost all interest in this game"

They will not quit completely, mind you, but just sulk in the corner for a while, licking their wounded pride. This will be enough for them to get themselves in disarray while we then do the same to CivFr.

And bistrita said...

I bet 20 beers that willnot happen au contrair they reaction will be to fight to the death.

Does that count as a bet? Does bistrita owe me some beers or what?

Anyway, beers or no beers you guys have pulled off some excellent strategy and diplomacy, isolating RB and keeping them there. Now all we must do is consider what tricks they might have up their sleeve and be prepared.

Cue the Star Wars Imperial March! Can't embed YouTube from my phone, sadly.

I don't think imbedded video works anymore, sadly, but here is a link so you can listen while readinghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNv5sPu0C1E

 

[Aivoturso]

Unfortunately we can't use offensive espy until our NAP has expired. CP or Poly wouldn't have any spies to do a bit more of our dirty work in the area, would they?

Or how about whipping a couple of galleys in Lokapora? No element of surprise there so it boils down to whether they can muster enough defence in time to defend from 4 amphibious assaults plus any possible knights we can get there in time.