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War with Spaniards

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by 2metraninja, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Now I think we must not risk our chariot, but cut the road instead. This will give us 1 more turn before their catapults are at Hansa.

    In Hansa, I hope that we can get City Walls in time. They will either need to stop and bombard giving us time to bring reinforcements, or they will lose their catapults in the attack.
     
  2. Aivoturso

    Aivoturso King

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    Even if we win we'll lose the chariot, right? If that is the case, in terms of expected loss/benefit, we have 35 % chance of causing them 95 :hammers: and receiving 30 :hammers: damage. We also have 65 % chance of just receiving 30 :hammers: damage. So just in pure numbers, expected benefit is 0.35*(95-30) - 0.65*30 = 3.25 positive values being expected benefit and negative expected loss. So just by numbers, the expected benefit is sligthly on our side. What I really like though is that we have possibility to cause a hiccup in their micro if we manage to kill their worker. I say, go for it, unless you think that cutting the road is more important at this point.

    EDIT: OK, crosspost with 2metra renders this analysis mostly useless :)
     
  3. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    Yes, Ahbi is our newly captured barb city. Based on what 2metra's newest screenshot revealed, it looks like Hansa is their true goal, though. They shouldn't have visibility into Ahbi, so for all they know we've stocked it full of spears. Hopefully they'll leave us alone down there, but it's probably best to assume they'll send a secondary stack in that direction.

    As long as neither UCiv nor the Spaniards change their current espy spending, then we don't even need to raise the slider and we'll get tech vision on UCiv soon and won't lose vision on Spanish graphs. Hopefully the Spaniards have overlooked this and won't change their Espy spending. However, if they switch to full Espy on us, and we don't immediately switch to full Espy on them, then we will need to use the slider to eventually catch up.


    Our odds are so bad against that axe now because it is in a forested hill. What would our chances look like if we attack after the chop finishes, and they lose the extra 50% defense bonus? Of course, we'll lose the chance to deny them the 30 hammers. Also, we wouldn't be able to cut the road yet, or we won't be able to reach the axe + worker. Hmmm, thinking about it, I say cut the road and whip those walls. Let them throw that army at Hansa.
     
  4. RegentMan

    RegentMan Deity

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    I'm glad my fears were wild and not what anybody intended and that discussion is moving forward as I had thought it originally would be. I haven't read anything since that I disagree with or want to challenge, so that's all I have to say right now. :)

    Although, I also wanted to say I'm fine with not invading right away. If we're allowed to build the Pyramids in peace, let's get those done before building up a conquering army. I'm for taking a few cities from them eventually, but if we can get the Pyramids in a handful of turns, let's do it.

    The spoilered section is just me explaining my thoughts and reasoning during the discussion earlier- I don't want to keep it going; just want to get my side on the record and move on to destroying the locusts to our east.
    Spoiler @ Sommers :
    You have to understand I honestly interpreted your post as a "hand the reins to 2metra and let him do what he wants." So when I read that, I literally said "Um..." out loud. While using "um" can denote sarcasm (Um... yeah sounds great...) it can also be a sound out of "Did I really just read that?" or "I can't believe I just read that."

    Had I posted "Well, game's over, let's just gift our cities to them and be on our way," I would expect someone to say, "Um... how about no?" I don't read the "um" in this context as sarcastic, just a statement of disbelief.

    Again, in my context, I viewed it as a statement of disbelief.

    I think what set the catalyst for this, for me, was the last line in your initial post:

    Remember, I read this as letting 2metra do what he wants with the war. So after I read the last line of, "If you disagree with me, tell me so I can tell you you're wrong," it came across as very arrogant to me. It seemed like a big guy going around and saying, "You wanna fight? I'm the biggest and baddest! Think I'm wrong? Let's fight!"

    I didn't get that, even with the smile (which can be used to ease something highly unpopular or controversial). As a big fan of Star Wars, I read making 2metra like Palpatine and granting him emergency powers as "give him the reins and gg."

    Again, it is how I interpreted it, so in my posting, I was not "exaggerating to enhance the mocking effect."

    Just alone like that, I can see a :lol: would be mocking. But, again, I thought you were serious about the whole thing, so after I posted my "team game" thing, reading this:
    was very disturbing. Here I'm thinking you were serious about handing over the reins to 2metra and you come back at me with an incorrect "sarcasm" charge. I honestly didn't know what to type back- I was surprised to read it, hence my post with the :lol: .

    Glad this exchange wasn't taken personally- I don't take it that way either. If I knew the whole thing wasn't serious, then I could see my posts as mocking. But as you all have read, I did not post with that interpretation in mind.

    I am actually rather sarcastic in everyday life, and have censored myself many-a-time before hitting the "submit reply" button here. I will continue to do so, as I don't want this mess to come up again- but in some situations I can't make any promises. :p


    As a serious question, what war situations could come up that we wouldn't have time to discuss as a team? I know with Caledorn and the foreign ministry, a chat could pop up at anytime so we give him the leeway to represent us and answer and chat freely. With war moves, we have 36-72 hours to get ideas on the table.

    If we were a team of tens of thousands, then of course this wouldn't be reasonable. Since we're but a dozen at the best of times, I don't see a majority of us going against 2metra's ideas in this war realm.
     
  5. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Sometimes RL chores cut/limit my civ time. And sometimes there can be emergencies - for example my civ pc is behaving weird from some 1-2 weeks already - when I try turn him on, he does nothing and turns just after 5-10 or 30 minutes on himself. Like bomb with unruly clock mechanism :D I have a netbook with Civ installed for backup, but still... Or if my internet stops - it have been times that this happens for the night and they repair it just at the morning. There were cases where I go to a cafe with free wifi and play turns :) Or if we cant make a clear decision on something, war wont wait. Units needs to be moved before the enemy. Or if while moving units they reveal something and there is no time before the turn switch. You get the idea.

    But generally I try to log in the earliest after turn switch and take a look around and start thinking things so when I come later at night to log in again, I have already some plan in my head.
     
  6. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    As far as our own goals for this war, I think we'd be best served by just defending against their attack. We don't need to make any big territorial gains just yet. Once we have peace, we can finish teching up until we're ready to take down UCiv. Our peace with the Spaniards should include a NAP long enough to allow us to do that. Then, we can revisit the Spaniards when we're ready. Hopefully we can still do all this and be ready to join CP against RB by turn 175.
     
  7. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Yeah, unfortunately :(
     
  8. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    mixture of spears and axes should be great in defensive war.
    if we plan defensive war longbows are better choice imo.
    they could pillage us, but definitely not kill us.

    they have superior movement if they make impi+chariot stacks, but if we have good roading around cities that's nothing stacks of axes can't solve

    Depends how clever they want to go... I am not proficient in warfare MP, but they have 2 choices

    quick war of massive impi+chariot stacks trying to outmaneuver us.
    slow war of cats+anything...

    If they choose slow war, it will be favorable for us because we have superior movement even if they will have 5 str units without direct counter.

    the case of HA's is complicated because they have impi's and you have to survive the battle to damage cats in open terrain.

    if we eventually start to siege then you can't flank at all...
    I actually don't think it would be good to run offensive warfare against them even if we get upper hand eventually... since in this era defender has really superior tools with strike first.

    I think we should be able to outtech them eventually to some good 2-movers...
     
  9. RegentMan

    RegentMan Deity

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    Hmm that's not a bad idea either. Build enough defense to hold them off, maybe a spy or two to detect incoming stacks, all the while building up towards a stronger unit.
     
  10. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    That is true. But by the composition of their units we see, I think they will try something in the middle. And this is good for us. Because they simply dont have the advantage in numbers and production and technology to try to steamroll us with balanced army. They would have been better off with any of those 2 extremes - trying to outmaneuver us with two-movers or putting a lot of their scary axes along their cats to prevent us from attacking their stack. Now they have impis and catapults. Given equal numbers, our axes can attack this stack composition with good chance of success.
     
  11. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    that's kinda what I thought they will end do and as you say...that's our advantage
     
  12. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    btw longbows open eventually Knights too.... and Knights are not bad units if enemy doesn't rush castles, which I doubt human players do.

    edit:
    from my experience in SP you can rush with Knights against Longbows if there are no castles very successfully (aka Renessaince start against AI)

    and you slaughter spears/axes/archers obviously
     
  13. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    One of the strategies I was thinking about was knights at turn 135 and flow the whole surrounding map with tens of knights. Obviously, now when we are at war this becomes very lucrative path, but also, our chances and freedom to execute it diminish significantly.
     
  14. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    We need to see if any of our friends and allies can help us open up a second front in the Spanish - Indian war. This is what the Spaniards wrote on November 20 about their neighbors (before they had even met UCiv).

    This makes me think that CivFr (Mayan French team) is their direct eastern neighbor, and Apolyton (England) is their neighbor to the north-east. It really sucks we don't know either of them, but let's talk to the Germans, CP, WPC and RB to see if we can get any of them to pass along the message that the Spaniards are sending all their troops to their western borders for an attack against us, and their eastern flank is wide open for easy pickings.
     
  15. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Great idea, Yossarian! We can also ask other teams to help arrange our meeting in the neutral ground.
     
  16. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    If we invite another team to the party they will just gobble up all the Spanish lands... I don't think we are in a situation where we need a 2nd front just yet.
     
  17. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Better give away Spanish cities than our own, I think ;)

    But you are right that the most difficult aspect of our situation right now is uncertainty. But we will know more what to expect soon with UCiv answer - or lack of it :(
     
  18. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Very good idea Yossa. I was thinking to ask CP to pass a message for us, but first wanted to know if they are still looking at us as friends and allies after we tell them we have long NAP with RB.

    This is the best sentence I have read amongst the many we said lately in these turbulent times. :thumbsup:

    There is no uncertainty. We are in a two-front war situation, we just dont see the Uciv armies yet. As the military saying goes: "Once is a coincidence, twice is hostile attack" (it sounds better in Bulgarian, as there is rhyme, but you get the meaning). We have sent 2 messages to Uciv since their last "We dont forget you" message, and we never heard back from them, they only start to chain-whip. So anyone, dont have doubts, they are coming.
     
  19. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    That is pretty much our best shot. We need to get cats out then some defence to stop them from thinking to take our cities, then we need to stack attack their cats and if we still need to be at war with them, then we should be going for maces, which will be a few turns away. If we are still at war then get knights. Hopefully we have ended the war before we need knights. But also if we are still at war then knights will be the game changer. So right now we have to focus on military techs only.

    EDIT. I am thinking that their declaration of war is to stop us from getting the marble that is between both teams.
     
  20. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Spaniards just ended their turn. Logging in to see whats going on and report.
     

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