Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

[Ahriman]

So the best options IMO are EITHER:
a) Have the ork shaman require priesthood tech, and be an adept-level caster in terms of power. Have the WAAAGH! tech be moderately expensive, like one of the Elemental magic techs for example (Master of Fire etc) .
Have the goblin shaman require both WAAAGH! tech and Fanaticism tech, and be a slightly weak archmage-level in terms of power.
Remove access to Arcane Mastery from Greenskins.
OR
b) Have the WAAAGH! tech be cheap, and have the ork shaman require WAAAGH! tech, and the goblin shaman require Arcane mastery tech, and be archmage quality in terms of power.
Then, think of other separate units that ork/goblin/hobgoblin factions can get at the priesthood tech and fanaticism tech.
We can't really leave these techs empty.

A third option:
c) Have the Ork shaman require both WAAAGH! and Priesthood. Have the goblin shaman require Arcane Mastery. Create separate units at fanticism for ork, goblin and hobgoblin factions.

Eg: Ruglund's Armored Orks (strength 6, 1 move, starts with steel weapons promotion?), Nightgoblin fanatics, ?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I'm tempted to just make the shamans Disciple class units and tie them into Fanaticism and priesthood techs and remove Arcane units (and the arcane trait from one of the greenskin leaders) entirely.

a) Have the ork shaman require priesthood tech, and be an adept-level caster in terms of power. Have the WAAAGH! tech be moderately expensive, like one of the Elemental magic techs for example (Master of Fire etc) .
Have the goblin shaman require both WAAAGH! tech and Fanaticism tech, and be a slightly weak archmage-level in terms of power.
Remove access to Arcane Mastery from Greenskins.

I vote we do this for all Destruction civs. Ogres will also have this issue in that their spellcasters are also religious units.

IIRC that's due to the fact that, although they are Longbow(wo)men, they also carry a Handweapon & a spear, as well as wearing heavy armour. See the following link please: http://warvault.net/warhammer_realm/...t=6369&start=0. (That's pulled from an old forum on the WH tabletop game, as the Handmaidens are no longer sold by games-workshop.) Also, here's a pic: http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/...fEverqueen.jpg. (This pic is from the WH Online game. Notice how the Handmaidens are depicted with a spear.) However, since we already have pikemen unit & the Handmaidens use longbows, I'm sure that's why P_L put them forward as mainly longbow units but with a bonus against shock cavalry.

precisely

I guess I worry that it weakens the spearman role too much - and spearmen are very canon for HE. But I have no particular objections.

the unit is still a longbow unit, and the normal spearment are still a lot better against cavalry than the handmaidens. i dont mind reducing the bonus vs cavalry on the handmaidens more though.

I like the idea of a few Super-buildings that are expensive but powerful. A Pyramid or Necropolis should have major effects.
Brainstorming ancient Egyptian buildnig names or tomb names will help.
We have Obelisk, Cenotaph, Mastaba, Pyramid, Necropolis.
What else can we think of?
I guess we could have some generic ones, a Mausoleum, Sepulcher, Vault, Catacomb, Funerary Grounds, Mortuary, Ossuary.
Some of these could be Barracks type replacements too.

these are from the design thread:

Unique Buildings:
The Black Pyramid of Nagash (wonder)
The Great Pyramids of Khemri (wonder)
Obelisks (replaces waystones)
Mastaba (effect to be determined)
Necropolis(effect to be determined)
Mortuary (effect to be determined)
Temple of Immortality (effect to be determined)

i also like the 'Catacomb' and 'Sepulcher' that you mention ahri.

Basically i agree with ahri that we ban khemri from building anything food and health related and make a separate list of powerful buildings. such effects as giving sage/cleric GPP could be given to the mortuary and sepulcher, large gold boost can go to catacombes and mastabas, hammers could go to the mortuary as well. we need more sources of hammers though, being their most used yield.

 

[Ahriman]

Builds blocked or replaced for Tomb Kings:
• Waystone (get replacement)
• Granary
• Smokehouse
• Tanner (get replacement)
• Grocer
• Theatre
• Brothel
• Temple of Immortality (gets replacement)
• Coven (no arcane units)
• Monument (gets replacement)
• Graveyard (gets replacement)
• Bloodbowl Stadium

* * *

Some replacement buildings:
(The trick is going to be to intelligently spread some of these over the techs for the buildings we are removing.)

Obelisk (replaces Waystone).
+1 influence, +1 hammer, increases chance of Awakened being spawned.

Cenotaph (replaces monument)
Provides +2 influence, +3 hammers. +1GPP (great cleric), increases chance of Awakened being spawned.

Ossuary (replaces tanner)
+10% military production. Requires Eternal Life tech.

Souk (replaces market)
Allows 1 citizen to be converted to merchant. +20% Gold. +5% gold from banana, olives, spices, sugar, ivory, pearl, whale.

Temple of ??? (replaces temple of immortality)
Required for Liche Priest units.
Provides +1 great priest GPP.

Mastaba (replaces graveyard).
Adds +1 influence, +1 gold, +1 beakers, increases the probability of Awakened being spawned.

Mortuary
?

Sepulcher
?

Catacomb
?

Pyramid.
Requires: Masonry tech.
+1 hammer from clerics, great clerics.
Allows 1 citizen to be converted to engineer. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to sage. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to lord. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest.
Adds +5% gold with gold, silver, dye, cotton, grapes, barley.
Adds +5% hammers with rice, corn, wheat, cow, pig, sheep (with food, you can feed slave populations to build stuff for you).
Hammer cost: 250.

Necropolis.
Requires: Engineering tech. Pyramid building.
+1 gold from clerics, great clerics.
Allows 1 citizen to be converted to engineer. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to sage. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to lord. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest.
Adds +5% gold with tea, spices, pipeweed, fur, silk, incense.
Adds +5% hammers with olives, fish, crab, clam, deer, toads.
Hammer cost: 250.

Great Pyramids of Khemri
Provides 2 free priest.
Provides +2 great priest GPP.
Allows 2 citizens to be coverted to priests.

Black Pyramid of Nagash
?

Buildings kept for Tomb Kings:
• Elder Council
• Harbor.
• Lighthouse:
• Inn (for living travellers)
• Customhouse.
• Library
• University.
• Alchemist.
• Forge
• Blacksmith
• Master smith
• Walls (1)
• High Walls (2)
• Castle (1)
• Citadel (2)
• Dungeon
• Courthouse

Keep military buildings?
• Barracks
• Archery Range
• Bowyer
• Training Yard
• Hunting Lodge
• Breeding pit
• Stables
• Hippodrome (2)
• Siege Workshop (1)
• Machinists Workshop (2)
• Ship Yard (1)
• Dry Dock (2)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I like those

hows this:

Mortuary
greatly increase chance of awakened spawning (fresh humans dying to become undead), +2 hammers, Allows 1 citizen to be converted to sage.

Sepulcher
+10% military unit production, increase chance of awakened spawning.

Catacomb
+3 gold, +10% beakers, Allows 1 citizen to be converted to sage.

 

[Ahriman]

Seems reasonable. At what techs, do you think?

 

[Ahriman]

Also, any thoughts on spirituality units?
(Post 554)

 

[rocklikeafool]

Note: I threw some the long lists into spoilers to make my post shorter. Just a pet peeve of mine sometimes.

Builds blocked or replaced for Tomb Kings:

Spoiler :

• Waystone (get replacement)
• Granary
• Smokehouse
• Tanner (get replacement)
• Grocer
• Theatre
• Brothel
• Temple of Immortality (gets replacement)
• Coven (no arcane units)
• Monument (gets replacement)
• Graveyard (gets replacement)
• Bloodbowl Stadium

Why are we blocking the Bloodbowl Stadium, just out of curiosity? What’s the reasoning for that? Cuz I’d think that Undead people would get bored too. They’d prolly use living mercenaries to form their team, of course, not their own Undead citizens (due to Eternal Army & no real injuries and such cuz of that). Otherwise, the other teams might cry foul cuz Eternal Army would make the Undead players pretty damn hard to tackle, hurt/kill, etc. Anyway, why on this?

Some replacement buildings:
(The trick is going to be to intelligently spread some of these over the techs for the buildings we are removing.)

We can do some playtesting to determine this I think, whether we’ve spread them intelligently I mean.

Obelisk (replaces Waystone).
+1 influence, +1 hammer, increases chance of Awakened being spawned.
Cenotaph (replaces monument)
Provides +2 influence, +3 hammers. +1GPP (great cleric), increases chance of Awakened being spawned.
Mastaba (replaces graveyard).
Adds +1 influence, +1 gold, +1 beakers, increases the probability of Awakened being spawned.

On these, what you thinking the % chance of awakened being spawned should be?

Buildings kept for Tomb Kings:

Spoiler :

• Elder Council
• Harbor.
• Lighthouse:
• Inn (for living travellers)
• Customhouse.
• Library
• University.
• Alchemist.
• Forge
• Blacksmith
• Master smith
• Walls (1)
• High Walls (2)
• Castle (1)
• Citadel (2)
• Dungeon
• Courthouse

K. Those all make sense.

Keep military buildings?

I’d definitely say yes.

Spoiler :

• Barracks
• Archery Range
• Bowyer
• Training Yard
• Hunting Lodge
• Breeding pit
• Stables
• Hippodrome (2)
• Siege Workshop (1)
• Machinists Workshop (2)
• Ship Yard (1)
• Dry Dock (2)

K. Again, all of em make sense.

Sepulcher
+10% military unit production, increase chance of awakened spawning.

Again, what % awaken spawn we talking?

And as Ahri said, what techs for all these? Obviously, the replacement UBs should go where the base buildings are. I think as for the rest, we should kinda compare them to some other buildings that have similar stats and put them on the techs those similar stat buildings are on now. Then, we can playtest and move them around as we need.

Also, I might suggest that, in the future (as in after every civ & all the mechanics, etc. are coded & working properly), we come up with more UBs for Khemri, or at least change the names on some of the generic buildings, just to reflect that “Undead flavor” more, if that makes any sense. However, I’m not gonna worry about that for months. Just a suggestion for later. Put a pin in it, and we’ll come back to it later.

Edit:

Also, any thoughts on spirituality units?
(Post 554)

Btw, you can find my thoughts here, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8862986&postcount=555. Just so P_L can see them and know what's already been said.



Plus, it doesn't affect us much, but I'm getting my PC reformatted. (There goes a f*cking $220! Oh, well.) That will be finished by sometime on Thursday. So, I haven't actually started much of the XML tasks Ahri suggested, due to that issue. However, I have them all written down and will remember them. Then, come Thursday night, I'll begin to work on it after I do some work getting it set up how I want it.

Spoiler :

I'm gonna set it up as a Dual OS with both Windows XP and Ubuntu (a Linux OS). I need XP for Civ, iTunes, and my MMORPGs; but I really'd like to screw around with Linux when I can. I figure Linux will allow me to learn more things coding-wise. ::shrug:: Plus, it's just damn cool I think. So, that'll take an hour to set up...And then I'll be doing XML!

I'm very excited to begin the XML work actually!

 

[Ahriman]

The problem I have with the Khemri buildings above, is that a lot of the buildings are just various types of tombs and crypts. It isn't obvious to the human player what exactly it is that they do.

What’s the reasoning for that? Cuz I’d think that Undead people would get bored too.

Umm... really?
The undead population is immune to unhappiness. Gladitorial games dont' really make any sense.
And the main benefit frmo the building is happiness. Blocking it stops the AI from wasting resources on it, if nothing else.

Again, what % awaken spawn we talking?

Base % probabilities were in my Tomb Kings discussion, mostly pulled from the original Scions design.

Reprinted here, slightly tweaked.
I don't think we want *every* building to be increasing Awakened spawn chances, just the most obvious ones.

But this will need a lot of testing and tweaking.

Spoiler :

Awakened spawn only in the capital city of a Khemri civ, and then can eventually be built directly with hammers (requires a Necropolis?)

The base chance per turn of spawning an Awakened for a Standard-sized world is:
Quick: ~9%
Normal: ~6%
Epic: ~3.5%
Marathon: ~3%

The world size also sets a cap on Awakened generation: It ranges from 20 for a Duel world to 70 for a Huge one (as in; once your total population exceeds this limit, no further awakened will be spawned).

Various factors can increase the base chance of an awakened spawning. The game speed determines how quickly the odds fall each turn.

Every +1 (from factors below) will give the following bonus.
Quick: +2%
Normal: + 1.33%
Epic: +0.8%
Marathon: +0.67%

Total buildings your civ controls:
Obelisk * 0.5
Temple of Eternal Life* 2
Mastaba *0.5
Cenotaph *1
Sepulcher*1
Mortuary*1.5

Resources:
+1 each for having any:
Silk, Gold, Gems, Ivory, Dye.

World Size adjustment:
"Population limit" / 40
That limit is 20 for a Duel sized world and goes up to 70 for a Huge world.

Multipliers:
Civic: God king Then * 1.25. Otherwise no change.

Game speed - the numbers are linked to game-speed production adjustments. Divide by...
Quick: 0.5
Normal: 0.75
Epic: 1.125
Marathon: 1.5

Game turn. Every turn the probability drops
Quick: 0.5%
Normal: 0.25%
Epic: 0.165%
Marathon: 0.125%

Ai mod:
The AI gets a x2 multiplier.

Just as a start, will need tweaking.

Btw, you can find my thoughts here

Hmm...this might work...cast em as sorta thieves/assassins? Um...I guess I'd have to know a little more about them? It seems a good tentative idea. Thuggee. Decent name too.

Fairly sparse comments
Any other ideas? To learn about thuggees, follow the link I gave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thugee

The problem is that we want a unit representing the "spiritual"/lawful side of Ind for this slot, not the darker more chaotic side. Some kind of Hinduy holy warrior.

but I'm getting my PC reformatted. That will be finished by sometime on Thursday.

Great! Congrats on getting stuff sorted, I hope it all works cleanly.

 

[rocklikeafool]

The problem I have with the Khemri buildings above, is that a lot of the buildings are just various types of tombs and crypts. It isn't obvious to the human player what exactly it is that they do.

Umm... really?
The undead population is immune to unhappiness. Gladitorial games dont' really make any sense.
And the main benefit frmo the building is happiness. Blocking it stops the AI from wasting resources on it, if nothing else.

DUH! I forgot that. Sorry. I guess I was thinking the Undead race from World of Warcraft, not the whole FF setup of Undead. Sorry. My bad. I feel stupid now...

Base % probabilities were in my Tomb Kings discussion, mostly pulled from the original Scions design.

K.

Reprinted here, slightly tweaked.
I don't think we want *every* building to be increasing Awakened spawn chances, just the most obvious ones.

Yes, agreed. That'd just be stupid, cuz then Khemri would spawn awakened like crazy. And IIRC, FF has a slight issue with the AI not knowing what to do with Awakened. (The AI just seemed to use Awakened as workers when I played a few games a long while back; so, as a result, the Scion cities were so small that their economy wasn't healthy.) They may have improved that, however. I admit I haven't played FF for about 6 months; so, I'm not quite sure if it's an issue with the AI in the version of FF we're currently using.

But this will need a lot of testing and tweaking.

Awakened spawn only in the capital city of a Khemri civ, and then can eventually be built directly with hammers (requires a Necropolis?)

The base chance per turn of spawning an Awakened for a Standard-sized world is:
Quick: ~9%
Normal: ~6%
Epic: ~3.5%
Marathon: ~3%

Reasonable values.

The world size also sets a cap on Awakened generation: It ranges from 20 for a Duel world to 70 for a Huge one (as in; once your total population exceeds this limit, no further awakened will be spawned).

Meaning 20 to 70 (depending on map size) citizens in the capital, correct? Not 20 to 70 citizens in ALL your cities? I just want to clarify that, even though I'm about 90% sure you mean "in the capital".

Various factors can increase the base chance of an awakened spawning. The game speed determines how quickly the odds fall each turn.

Spoiler :

Every +1 (from factors below) will give the following bonus.
Quick: +2%
Normal: + 1.33%
Epic: +0.8%
Marathon: +0.67%

Total buildings your civ controls:
Obelisk * 0.5
Temple of Eternal Life* 2
Mastaba *0.5
Cenotaph *1
Sepulcher*1
Mortuary*1.5

Resources:
+1 each for having any:
Silk, Gold, Gems, Ivory, Dye.

World Size adjustment:
"Population limit" / 40
That limit is 20 for a Duel sized world and goes up to 70 for a Huge world.

Multipliers:
Civic: God king Then * 1.25. Otherwise no change.

Game speed - the numbers are linked to game-speed production adjustments. Divide by...
Quick: 0.5
Normal: 0.75
Epic: 1.125
Marathon: 1.5

Game turn. Every turn the probability drops
Quick: 0.5%
Normal: 0.25%
Epic: 0.165%
Marathon: 0.125%

Ai mod:
The AI gets a x2 multiplier.

Just as a start, will need tweaking.

K, that all makes sense to me. Pretty much the same as the Scions values, adjusted for our purposes. We can then playtest & further tweak it.

Fairly sparse comments
Any other ideas? To learn about thuggees, follow the link I gave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thugee

The problem is that we want a unit representing the "spiritual"/lawful side of Ind for this slot, not the darker more chaotic side. Some kind of Hinduy holy warrior.

Yeah, definitely. Here's some info pulled from that article, by the way:

Spoiler :

Thuggee groups might be Hindu, Sikh or Muslim, but Thuggee is particularly associated with followers of the Hindu Goddess Kali (or Durga), whom they often called Bhavani.[3][4][5] It was noted, even at the time, that only a very small minority of the followers of Kali were Thuggees. Many Thuggees worshipped Kali but most supporters of Kali did not practise Thuggee.

Link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thugee#Religion_and_Thuggee

Then, I looked up the Hindu goddess Kali, the sort of patroness of Thuggees:

Spoiler :

Kali (Sanskrit: काली, Bengali: কালী, both Kāl&#299, also known as Kalika (Bengali: কালিকা, Kālik&#257, is the Hindu goddess associated with eternal energy. The name Kali means "black" but has, by folk etymology, come to mean "force of time (kala)." Kali is today considered the goddess of time and change. Although sometimes presented as dark and violent, her earliest incarnation as a figure of annihilation still has some influence. More complex Tantric beliefs sometimes extend her role so far as to be the "ultimate reality" or Brahman. She is also revered as Bhavatarini (literally "redeemer of the universe"). Comparatively recent devotional movements largely conceive Kali as a benevolent mother goddess.

Link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali

I also checked out the Hindu goddess Durga:

Spoiler :

In Hinduism, Durga (दुर्गा, "the inaccessible"[1] or "the invincible") or Maa Durga (Mother Durga) "one who can redeem in situations of utmost distress".[citation needed] Durga is a form of Devi, the supremely radiant goddess, depicted as having ten arms, riding a lion or a tiger, carrying weapons (including a lotus flower), maintaining a meditative smile, and practicing mudras, or symbolic hand gestures.
An embodiment of creative feminine force (Shakti), Durga exists in a state of svātantrya (independence from the universe and anything/anybody else, i.e., self-sufficiency) and fierce compassion. Durga is considered by Hindus to be an aspect of Kali, and the mother of Ganesha, Saraswati, Lakshmi and Kartikeya.[2] She is thus considered the fiercer, demon-fighting form of Shiva's wife, goddess Parvati. Durga manifests fearlessness and patience, and never loses her sense of humor, even during spiritual battles of epic proportion.

Link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durga

So, Idk, chew those over a bit. It seems to me that, if we base the Thuggee off of the goddess Kali model (from looking at who Kali is), it doesn't represent the 'the "spiritual"/lawful side' you mentioned. However, if we based the Thuggee off of the goddess Durga model (from looking at who Durga is), it does work. Kali is pretty malevolent according to that Wiki, while Durga (although an aspect of Kali) is less so, being even benevolent really. So, basing the Thuggee model off of the worship of Durga, I think it would work.

Great! Congrats on getting stuff sorted, I hope it all works cleanly.

Thanks!
I'm getting a professional to do a wipe, getting my hard drive cleaned to par with US government standards. So, basically, there'll be no prints of any data left by the time that guy's done. Should be perfect!
Then, it's just a matter of me setting it up correctly, which shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Ahriman]

Meaning 20 to 70 (depending on map size) citizens in the capital, correct? Not 20 to 70 citizens in ALL your cities? I just want to clarify that, even though I'm about 90% sure you mean "in the capital".

Nope, I meant in all cities. More than 20 citizens in the capital alone would be huge!
Tomb King cities should be smaller than average. That's why they have all these extra buildings that give extra bonuses.
So you stop getting *free* awakened after total of 20 population (across all your cities) on duel size map, 30 on tiny, 40 on small, 50 on standard, 60 on large, 70 on huge.
If you want more, you have to build them using hammers in cities with a Necropolis (very expensive) or from unit capture, or from conquering cities.
The idea is, free spawn is only supposed to get you to the midgame. As with the Scions.
And the limit needs to be on all pop; you don't want to create exploits where you can keep getting free units if you don't grow your capital that much.

* * *
Durga captures the kind of unit we want (militant religiosity with an extra helping of ass-kicking), but I think the term Thuggee is too strongly associated with the garotte-using murderous thieves.
Who do not have much Righteous Asskicking.

In any case; even if we can't think of a name, can we think of some unit stats and art-style that fits?
A 4-armed woman with swords mounted on a tiger with a bonus vs demons probably works.

Strength 5+1 holy, can use metal weapons, 2 moves, +25% vs demons?

How about "Shakti", = divine feminine force?
Though this also seems to actually refer to a goddess (an over-goddess, really).

 

[rocklikeafool]

Nope, I meant in all cities. More than 20 citizens in the capital alone would be huge!
Tomb King cities should be smaller than average. That's why they have all these extra buildings that give extra bonuses.
So you stop getting *free* awakened after total of 20 population (across all your cities) on duel size map, 30 on tiny, 40 on small, 50 on standard, 60 on large, 70 on huge.
If you want more, you have to build them using hammers in cities with a Necropolis (very expensive) or from unit capture, or from conquering cities.
The idea is, free spawn is only supposed to get you to the midgame. As with the Scions.
And the limit needs to be on all pop; you don't want to create exploits where you can keep getting free units if you don't grow your capital that much.

Ok. I get it now.

Durga captures the kind of unit we want (militant religiosity with an extra helping of ass-kicking), but I think the term Thuggee is too strongly associated with the garotte-using murderous thieves.
Who do not have much Righteous Asskicking.

In any case; even if we can't think of a name, can we think of some unit stats and art-style that fits?
A 4-armed woman with swords mounted on a tiger with a bonus vs demons probably works.

Strength 5+1 holy, can use metal weapons, 2 moves, +25% vs demons?

How about "Shakti", = divine feminine force?
Though this also seems to actually refer to a goddess (an over-goddess, really).

Works for me.

 

[rocklikeafool]

***Just some things I'd like P_L to change in the Design Overview please:

• HE:
  "Handmaidens of the Everqueen" to "Handmaidens". The full title is too long. We'll note them as "Handmaidens of the Everqueen" in the Pedia description.
• DE:
  The Militia Repeater Crossbowman should have -1 def str, not -1 overall str.
• Brettonia:
  "Mounted Yoemen" is the Lancer UU.
  Make peasants units cheaper?
• Kislev:
  No "Kislevite" promotion. The Kislevites are just human. I'll just use the "Human" promotion for them.

Thanks, P_L.

***Also...

The "Human" promotion:
This promotion is underpowered compared to the other racial promotions. Right now, it has no benefits to it.

Look at a few others.
Druchii:

Spoiler :

+1 movement, +1 first strike chance. 5% chance to capture enemies as a slave.

Dwarf:

Spoiler :

+10% hills strength (not double move in hills), double bonus from fortification (like defensive promotion in FFH), 25% poison resistance.

These both have very nice benefits, as do all the other racial promotions. We should come up with a benefit for "Human" to balance it with the rest of the racial promotions.

***Finally...
I'll be coding in all the Old World civs, like Bretonnia, Estalia, etc. so that we can have those done, as well as the Salvation UUs & UBs.

 

[Ahriman]

Having the peasant units be ~5% cheaper in hammers would probably work fine.

These both have very nice benefits, as do all the other racial promotions. We should come up with a benefit for "Human" to balance it with the rest of the racial promotions.

I strongly disagree here.

First, I don't see any need for a human racial promotion. Like FFH, "human" should just be the default: most of the units for nearly half the factions are human.
(Empire, Brettonnia, Kislev, Estalia, Tilea, Araby, Norsca, Kurgan, Hung, Ind, Cathay, Nippon are all human).

Second, factions are balanced at the faction level, not the specific promotion level.
Elves and dwarves and ogres are supposed to be tougher, man for man, but have other penalties to compensate.
Many of these factions get a food penalty in their core population, which is a *huge* penalty in game terms, since it has a massive early game impact on expansion and economic development, or a military production penalty, to compensate for the superior units (from better racial promotion) by making them effectively "more expensive".

So, the dwarf promotion or high elf promotion is an outright bonus, while the goblin promotion is an outright penalty. Which is all by design.

 

[Nelia Hawk]

what about createing simple "red questionmark" (?)
2d icons and 3d models (cant be that hard, maybe ask someone who designs civ4 units?) as placeholder?

as there seem to be a few bugs crashing the game with the purple/red bubble placeholder civ uses. (i.e. the tanner building, bug BD9)

that way you could use these questionmarks everywhere where you dont have art for yet, so it can be quickly seen when there is still something missing. (i.e. a spell with the 2d questionmark placeholder icon. or a visible questionmark unit or a questionmark as building visible in town.)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Nelia, its a good idea, but its easier to just find the appropriate art for things as we go there is so much art out there now we dont really have a problem finding suitable stuff

 

[mathurian]

Just wanted to let you guys know that there are plenty of us out here who looks forward to new versions and updates (even though my schedule is so busy now that I'm in the Navy that I only get to play once every couple months), so thanks for puttting them out!

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

No problem Mathurian the updates have been kinda slow because of various team members also having busy schedules, but the latest version was released yesterday (check the downloads thread) if you are interested

 

[mathurian]

I know, I check the site every couple days to see how things are going

I probably won't download this version just yet as a new one may be out by the time I manage to get any playing time in.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

haha fair enough

 

[Nelia Hawk]

AH 73
Market building doesn't give +25% gold, it should.

Smugglers port building (if we keep it) should require Undercouncil vote.
I suggest we remove it entirely.

Also, remove all references to crime rate. Thats a FFH feature that really didn't work.

i would say too that crime rate could be taken out if needed and instead these buildings could give unhappyness then. (+0.25 +0.5 +1 )


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AH76
Waystone building too expensive (85 hammers!)
Its a monument substitute (early culture), it should be maybe 40 hammers.
Inn building feels too expensive too (250 hammers). Maybe 180 would be reasonable.

what plans do you have for "culture" atm?

currently it seems to be more "military influence" instead of culture. (and that might even be more fitting for the warhammerworld? influenceing other civs with your culture is hardly possible in warhammer...)
some military buildings are giveing +1 too atm.

also 2 military techs allow you to "build culture" atm (i think one is tactik and the one before that)

and when i remember right you had some "fights influence culture" mechanic in the old mod.


you could change culture completely too:
-rename "culture" to "empire borders". (will be used for towns and is hardly influencable for enemys)
-towns start with one tile like normal.
-waystones are the early way to increase it. (later can be increased by "normal" culture like buildings... maybe even city population (bigger city=bigger town area) (something like each 2-5 population= +1 town)

-add a 2nd "culture" named "military influence" (i think it was the "Rife" (FF+) mod that had a 2nd culture named border that fortcommanders spread) (maybe use a lighter color for this?)
-this culture can be influenced alot by own and enemy military.
-military buildings spread this culture from towns. (i.e. patrols started from these buildings)
-each military unit influences its own tile by +2% and tiles around it by +1%.
-won or lost fights influence that tile by +/-20% and the tiles around that field by +/-10% (ranged combat just influences 1/2 (or 1/4th) damage% done)
-it takes 2-4x military influence to influence town "empire border" culture.
-(maybe) all units can enter military influence of other empires.
-if military influence of a field is over 75% then its counted as "empire border" (and cant be entered by enemy units. and tile improvements (i.e. roads) just support your civ) (but still is easyly influenced by enemy military influence)
-forts spread military culture.

so the town empire borders are more or less static (or slowly changeing) where the military borders can change alot depending on where armys run around and where fights are fought.
(but might confuse the AI? so maybe just wrap both together?)

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-are fort commanders planed? (or some (mostly) AI function to guard empty forts with a few units?)
(so you cant quickly run to a enemy fort and use these boni quickly)

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AH75
Bloodbowl stadium should not give beakers! (It currently gives +20% beakers).
Happiness, war weariness reduction only.

I also don't think it should give training. I don't really like training that much as a mechnaic, I don't think we should use it too much; the AI doesn't use it very well.

there could be different mechanics used instead. i.e.
-units build in towns with such buildings get a "trained" promotion.
-trained promotion could give a bit xp over time like with arcane units.
-or the trained promotion could simply give +5-10% str +10-20% more xp in battle.

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what about giving most ranged units (i.e. archers, cannons...maybe not woodelves and other forest civs?) a malus when defending/attacking forest fields and a malus when they stand on a forest field?
and/or a malus to ranged attacks when standing in a forest or attacking a forest field.


thought about this as the enemy i was at war with ran to me with 4 archers sitting on a forest+hill field right next to my town (+50% defence + 25% defense unitboni for hills) made these defence 5 archers (that quickly get 7-10str there defending) realy annoying to get away again... + they range attack the town each turn = get xp for str upgrades.

it was nearly impossible with str3 warriors to beat them. so i rushed to horseback rideing (just to notice that no horses are in my area ). then rushed to metal working to get str4 axe- and spearman.
took me around 10 str4 units and 5 str3 warriorcannonfooder +ranged attacks from my archers in town to get these 4 archers away again.

but i might just have been unlucky in that situation there


or changeing these general boni from +25% to +10% (i.e. archer hill defence) as i.e. the combat promotion just gives +10% too atm.
so overall there are lower total boni % and more chances to beat a high boni unit with lower units. (the lucky dice 6)

this might be not needed atall and a one time event more or less. i guess it might fixes itsself after a few updates when more promotions and units are in the mod. (i guess i missed the antiarcher promotion and hill attack one etc... i guess it might have been better with these already)