Warlords Challenge: What can you do with a kind word and a gun?

[carl corey]

Never bring a sword to a gunfight

I've seen a lot of talk lately in the Beelining to Gunpowder thread and the A comprehensive UU guide thread about the merits of beelining for Gunpowder, especially in the case of the two civs with Musketmen UUs, and Japan who has Aggressive and Protective Musketmen.

So I'd like to invite all of you to try to make the most of this Gunpowder slingshot. No matter how you do it - through bureaucracy & education, or through guilds, or whatever other ways you might choose - and no matter who you want to play with - see saves below - you can try your hand and then post about your gunning achievements.

If I didn't mess anything up while in WorldBuilder I'll give you four saves (Mehmed, Louis XIV, Napoleon and Tokugawa) with the same map, same opponents and same starting position.

The full settings are:

Civ build: Warlords, 2.08
Difficulty: Monarch
Map type: Continents
Map size: Standard
Speed: Normal
Leader: choose from Mehmed, Louis XIV, Napoleon and Tokugawa

I don't have any "winning" conditions in mind, this being more of a test than a contest. Feel free to play any number of times and post your results here. Think of noting some dates and numbers, like the year you got Gunpowder (and through which route), Chemistry, maybe Nationalism, how many Musketmen (or replacement UUs) you have built before Chemistry, what units you have faced, etc.

And have fun!

 

[carl corey]

reserved for future use

 

[cabert]

In my opinion a winning condition is the earliest date with 5 janissaries/musketeers.

 

[carl corey]

Well, you can say that, but I'm also interested in how you use your units and if you manage to make a difference with them. And it's just not over at Gunpowder. We've seen talk about Nationalism and drafting, or about getting Trebs and then Chemistry, etc. and I'd like to see how efficient each of these strategies is.

 

[carl corey]

Hmm, I just noticed that the other-than-Ottomans saves are smaller than the Ottomans one. Can it be because the Ottomans were the original save and the others were modified from it in WorldBuilder and then loaded from there?

 

[cabert]

Well, you can say that, but I'm also interested in how you use your units and if you manage to make a difference with them. And it's just not over at Gunpowder. We've seen talk about Nationalism and drafting, or about getting Trebs and then Chemistry, etc. and I'd like to see how efficient each of these strategies is.

Yep, that's why i don't suggest first one to have gunpowder, but first one to have some (5 is enough to start a limited war) muskets.

 

[idiot_savant]

Thanks for setting this up. Definitely a good way to test...

I'm also wondering aloud as to how we may gauge the state of the gambit and its impact on the game. The strategy obviously can be done -- and fast to your test. But the impact of the choice on your infrastructure and the longer term viability of the situation you are left with is important too. At least, in terms of the alternatives. One question I keep coming up with is how does this measure up vs. Early War/Chemistry choice or just traditional Macemen. That's what I'm struggling with... is this worth it versus a more traditional strategy?

Are we trying to answer that broader question here or simply how fast GP/Muskets can be done and which leader lends itself best to this gambit?

Which question will impact how I think about executing this and possible needed detours. Don't want to complicate, just want to be clear...

 

[carl corey]

Thanks for setting this up. Definitely a good way to test...

I'm also wondering aloud as to how we may gauge the state of the gambit and its impact on the game. The strategy obviously can be done -- and fast to your test. But the impact of the choice on your infrastructure and the longer term viability of the situation you are left with is important too. At least, in terms of the alternatives. One question I keep coming up with is how does this measure up vs. Early War/Chemistry choice or just traditional Macemen. That's what I'm struggling with... is this worth it versus a more traditional strategy?

Are we trying to answer that broader question here or simply how fast GP/Muskets can be done and which leader lends itself best to this gambit?

Which question will impact how I think about executing this and possible needed detours. Don't want to complicate, just want to be clear...

You're welcome. And you're certainly entitled to question the efficiency of beelining for Gunpowder. I guess nobody stops us to try going for Musketmen/UUs in one game and for Macemen/Samurais in another, and if the same player does both it will be even better, as the same skill will be present in both tries.

 

[lilnev]

It might to nice to set some specific dates, say 1000 AD and 1200 AD, and ask people to post saves from those dates. It would make it easier for someone to compare across games (by whatever metric they feel is important) to assess how various strategies have played out.

I'll give it a shot with the Ottomans, 'cuz I think the Janissaries offer the most potential return on a slingshot.

peace,
lilnev

 

[JackOfClubs]

You're welcome. And you're certainly entitled to question the efficiency of beelining for Gunpowder. I guess nobody stops us to try going for Musketmen/UUs in one game and for Macemen/Samurais in another, and if the same player does both it will be even better, as the same skill will be present in both tries.

Except, of course, that the second and all subsequent games will be played with knowledge of the map, which will make comparison of the different strategies difficult. I would suggest playing through 3 times: first using maces as a baseline, then playing the North and South routes. The big problem with this is the time it would take, but I don't see a better way to settle the question.

Perhaps a suitable metric would be earliest elimination of the nearest neighbor using the weapon of choice? Sorry I can't participate as I don't have Warlords, but the question seems interesting.

 

[carl corey]

Well, we've done challenges before with knowledge of the map, and many times the strategies that emerge are more important than the map itself. The n-th game may give better results than the first, but sometimes it's just due to perfecting and combining stuff from the others. Those strategies are what we're trying to remember from the challenges. The map, of course, will change in your next game.

lilnev, to give you an idea, getting Gunpowder & Janissaries in 560AD allowed me one pre-1000AD war and another war started before 1200AD. So I guess your dates are pretty good. I'll leave you to figure out what metric would be best as I'm pretty tired right now.

 

[Meatbuster]

Hey carl, how were you able to change the leader the player is using while using the same map?

 

[carl corey]

Oh boy, not a funny thing to do... The game saves a WorldBuilder save - not sure if you can do it yourself, but if you remove the previous one it creates one on his own. It's actually an XML file that you can modify - instead of a binary save. Then just replace the Civ & Leader related info by either looking the infos somewhere in the normal civ files, or by copying them from saves of the desired leaders. Load the modified WorldBuilder saves then save them as normal games. I'm not sure that's all there is to it as I didn't test the new saves, but I hope it works. Notice that the original (Ottomans) save is larger than the others, so I'm not sure I've done this right...

 

[Welnic]

I played a few turns with each save and had no problems.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Even though pre-patch I was struggling on prince, and post patch I struggle on Warlord, I'm going to try them out...

I may make multiple attempts with each though...

 

[Jet]

Played as Mehmed to 1700, gunpowder in 1100. Briefly --

Spoiler :

This was a little unusual for me -
-- Did more than usual early chopping and REX - I think the map just lent itself to that, but also Organized (more workers, more city spam)
-- Did much less tech trading than usual. That worked pretty well.
-- It seemed like an easy map (unintentionally I'm sure). I didn't think I was wasn't playing very carefully or well, but I was always high-scoring, sometimes in first place.
-- Ended up building practically no longbows and very few macemen.

First

AH, Mining, Fishing (hut), BW, Mysticism, Pottery, Writing, Alpha, Masonry (trade for Writing), Sailing (trade for Writing), Poly, Lit, Math, Currency

Chopped my REX, late Stonehenge (afterthought), took one barb city.
Around 0 AD I started fighting HC; it took a few rounds to trim him way back.
Built GL, NE (with GL), HE (from HC wars). I was pretty happy with the side trip to Alpha and Lit. And there was Marble, after all. Stonehenge prophet built shrine in Inca-captured holy city

And then

Construction, IW (trade for Lit), CoL (not first), first GS Academy (Instanbul was good and had GL and I was close to CS and I didn't want to wait for Education)

I had been running 2 scientists in Crab+Fish town since pretty early, but with GL+NE it took a long time to ever catch up with Istanbul. And my first great person was a prophet from Stonehenge. So except for an Academy no GS contributed to gunpowder.

CS, Med, Paper, Education (researched before second GS), Philo (GS) (not first)

And then

1110: gunpowder
Put HE city in a Janissary loop
Finished off HC in south and started tedious elimination of China.
Liberalism (first), nationalism... adopted nationhood but didn't end up drafting that much. I did draft a few Janissaries to sprinkle across my northern border and felt a sense of security.

My Janissaries were up against Chinese Longbows/Choks/Macemen. They did fine, but that war was mostly me against tenacious city garrisons.
I was mostly attacking cities with Cats and Axes and later Macemen. Some Janissaries, though. They were good against Choks, for example.
I noticed that attacking a city Longbow, my CII Janissary at 59% was comparable to my CRII Mace at 55%.
I mostly gave them straight Combat - tried one with Cover and it was indeed a good attacker, but I didn't have that many Janissaries altogether, yet.
The Janissaries did allow me to move my troops around China with impunity.

Because of Expansive/Organized and good land I had a fairly solid economy, but Janissaries still had a lot of competition from other builds that I couldn't get to earlier, especially Forges, Universities for Oxford, and then Trebs. Also, wealth buildings in Istanbul and my holy city, and missionaries. Also, Taj Mahal. By the time I could build Trebs, I really needed them, because I was running through my supply of cats while building Janissaries and the other things above.

And then

Drama, Monarchy + Calendar (trade for Philo), MC (trade for Paper), Feudalism, Machinery, Compass, PP (w/ 1 lightbulb), Engineering, Constitution, Guilds + Optics (trade for Education), Chemistry, Sci Meth (2 lightbulbs), Banking + Theo (trade for Liberalism), Demo, Steel, Music, Astro + Econ (trade for Sci Meth), Replacable, Physics, Corporation (trade for Replacable + Music).

It took a while to mop up first China, and then a couple leftover Incan cities between me and Korea.
Stalin declared, I think due to China vassalizing. Distracted by mopping up HC, I didn't fortify my border city quite enough, and lost it. After finishing HC, I started to push Stalin back. Compared to the war against China this war did feature somewhat more fighting in the open. Partly I think this is because it was more of an even fight - Stalin had a lot of land and big stacks. Also, we were fighting over border cities. Also, I didn't have a chance to take many cities from him. I got back mine, got one more, and was pushed back trying to take the third. So I was either defending in a city or fighting him in the open.

At the beginning of my fight against Russia I did do a bit of Janissaries vs. Longbows/Pikes etc, but I didn't get my troops over from China and Inca in time for a lot of that. I could have done so sooner, but I was conservative and careless and sent more units than necessary to finish China and Inca. On the Russian border I was fighting a lot of Muskets and Knights; and by the time I got my city back we both a few Grenadiers. At that point I had many Janissaries and didn't build any more. But the Janissaries were noticably flexible and especially helpful against Knights.

So I didn't get them that early and didn't have a chance to own the world with them or anything. Tactically they were helpful, you might say, logistically, helping me move troops around and do things flexibly.

 

[idiot_savant]

Played as XIV. Got GP in 960, 5 muskets by 1100. Didn't play past that as based on calculations and some flaws in execution -- trying again tonight.

Spoiler :

Basic path: Theology (cheaper) -> Paper -> Education -> Gunpowder

1) Get 5 cities out quickly, then focus on building up infrastructure and populations for drafting. Map demands early quick expansion, but you really need the pops to get Muskets out quicker once GP happens.

2) Built Stonehenge and Oracle in 2nd city. Stonehenge not necessarily, but figured that I could use GPP points. Not worth it in the end. Oracle, plus quick Temple enough to get priest for Theology. Used Oracle to pop CoL for Caste System. Given Marble, I am going to replace Stonehenge with Parthenon.

3) GPP: Get Priest for Theology ASAP. Get Scientist for Philosophy. Switch to Pacifism to drive GPPs. Paris was at 80ish GPPs by 300 AD or so. Got 1 scientist, but researched Paper. Popped 2nd scientist on last turn for Paper. Popped Education in 1 turn. Gunpowder was at 17 turns after that. Though slow start on GPPs, had 1 priest, 1 artist (really pissed me off), and 4 scientists prior. Plan is 1 priest and 6 scientists, 2nd to last as Paper finishes, last post-GP for Liberalism.

Since don't need fishing at all, I will get pre-reqs prior to GP through trade and avoid fishing. Hopefully, that will allow me to pop GP as well.

4) Traded too much and Korea popped Liberalism before I did. Trade up until Paper next time not after. Major trades I look for: back fill religious techs (OR is nice early), Mathematics, MC, Construction, and then CS if I can get there. I've been getting Currency for trade value, but not doing this next time unless needed.

5) Infrastructure was weakened by trying to back fill-in more cities. Will not do that again.

6) Lacking Spiritual is a pain as I switch gov't 5 times in game, but no easy way around it.

7) Doing late religion does cause some friction with others due Incas and Chinese drive to early ones.

Even with all this, I really doubt whether I can do better than Carl's original 560 AD. That is a ton of GPPs early.

Also, really doubt whether this is better early Maces. That will require GM/GEs rather than GSs, but if you focus hard still think on average you're going to get it done much quicker (I'm hypothesizing anywhere from 20-40 turns earlier).

Anyway, hope this helps.

 

[carl corey]

Oh, before anybody else thinks I've done the 560AD on this map: I didn't. It was another test game about which I've posted on the first page of the "Beelining to Gunpowder" thread. I haven't tried this one yet, so I don't know what to expect. There, hope it's all clear now.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

1 for three on attempts this morning. The first two tries I was caught by barbarians, the third, I did get the Janisaries by 1350 AD, but a neighbour had rifles by then.

I guess I just wasn't ready for Monarch...

This afternoon I went back to Warlord...

 

[idiot_savant]

Played as Louis XIV on both High Road (via Education) and Low Road (via Guilds).

High Road: Gunpowder in 640 AD. 5 Muskets in 760 AD.
Low Road: Gunpowder in 620 AD. 5 Muskets in 740 AD.

Spoiler :

XIV High Road

Overall strategy
1) Lightbulb way to Gunpowder via Education
2) Gets cities quickly. Get marble, bronze, and gold sites.
3) Found early religion – late religions make it hard to convert valuable AI partners (didn’t make it, Qin useless due to position).
4) Use Oracle for CoL and GS for Philosophy to run Caste + Pacifism. (Pacifism didn’t work well as the AI wouldn’t trade when I was diff’t religion except Korea at times).
5) Build Parthenon for additional GPPs. Paris was my farm @ 250% around 250 AD. GL was built in 125 AD.
6) Followup Gunpowder with Liberalism from GS and Nationalism as free tech. Got GS late for this as I only captured it 5 turns after GP.

Tech Path: AH – Myst – Poly (didn’t get Hinduism by 2 turns) – Mining – BW – Writing (get libraries up and running) – Priesthood – Pottery – CoL (Oracle, somehow Wong beat me here too) – Alphabet – Trades: Med, Math, Mono, IW, Monarchy, Hunting, Archery – Literature – Currency/trade – Construction (had to research because my Priest hadn’t popped yet) – Paper – MC/trade – HB/trade - Gunpowder (took a lot of turns).

Great People: 600 BC (GS), 100 BC (GP), 175 AD (GS), 350 AD (GS), 475 AD (GS).
1st: Philosophy @ 175 BC
2nd: Popped Theology @ 100 BC.
3rd: Saved a long time to help pop Education.
4th: Education, popped tech in 375 AD.
5th: Popped for Liberalism in 680 AD, but still need couple of turns to finish. Got Nationalism in 720 AD.

Built and then drafted my 5 muskets out in 760 AD thanks to switch to Nationhood – but as you can see, cities aren’t big enough to take advantage of drafting unfortunately.

Compared to Low Road:
a) This gives you more valuable techs to trade. When going the via Guilds, you can’t get certain techs without messing up which tech the GS will lightbulb. Easy to trade, but then you lose advantage.
b) Economy in terms of GNP+MFG+FOOD: 136, slightly behind Low Road. As you can see, focusing on GPP and converting many cities to research often has given me relatively low score.
c) Otherwise, process and outcome seem very similar to me.


XIV Low Road
Overall strategy
1) Lightbulb way to Gunpowder via Guilds.
2) Gets cities quickly. Get marble, bronze, and gold sites.
3) Found early religion – late religions make it hard to convert valuable AI partners (didn’t make it this time either, Qin useless due to position). I did get lucky this time and one of the AI religions spread allowing me to benefit from Pacifism a long time. Wound up with 8 GSs by 720AD.
4) Use Oracle for CoL and GS for Philosophy to run Caste + Pacifism. Cannot trade for Theology or CS which will make the GS go to Paper for lightbulb. Also, must avoid Fishing to use GSs on Low Road as someone (lilnev?) mentioned.
5) Build Parthenon for additional GPPs. Paris was my farm @ 250% around 150 AD. GL was built in 1 AD.

Tech Path: AH – Myst – Poly (didn’t get Hinduism by 4 turns) – Mining – BW – Writing (get libraries up and running) – Masonry – Priesthood – Pottery – CoL – Alphabet – Trades: Med, Hunting, IW (so GS will bulb MC etc.), Monarchy – Literature – Mathematics because no one would trade with me at this point – Feudalism – Trades: Monotheism, Archery – Guilds (580 AD) – Trade: Construction

Great People: all GSs. Popped in 500 BC, 175 BC, 75 AD, 300 AD, 400 AD, 540 AD, and 800 AD. I used them as follows.

1) Philosophy @ 50 BC
2) Metal Casting @ 50 BC, held him until Math was researched as well.
3) Machinery @ 75 AD.
4) Held him as well as 2 others until after Guilds. Used this one to pop Gunpowder, but low pop left me with 2 turns to finish. I could have used one of the 2 left, but decided that was just bad strategy and shouldn’t be used for slightly better finish.

At this point I must digress a bit, because I’m still sitting there with 2 GSs (#5, #6) and trying to trade for Construction to pop Engineering. I keep the second one around in case my population isn’t big enough to cover the entire thing as it wasn’t with Gunpowder

5) Folks still wouldn’t trade with me until Inca religion finally spread to me in 740 AD. Flipped quickly to trade for Construction in 780 AD. So…

With this GS and the one from 540 AD (#6), I use this one to pop Engineering in same year. I wait on Academy after noticing another one is coming up next turn, leaving me with 2 in hand again. 2 turns later, I start…

6) Chemistry in 820 AD.
7) Finishes Chemistry in same turn. Very disappointing in some respects as this is one reason not to try this strategy and just wait to you can pop this tech. I had even slowed down my GPPs to get to Slavery and keep pop high for whipping.

Differences from High Road:
1) Not as valuable for tech trades as the other techs you get from High Road. This is partly opinion and partly based on my lack of trading materials. Moreover, trades going this one are often ones you don’t want to trade.
2) Economy was slightly better than High Road, 144 GNP+MFG+FOOD. Cities were also bigger despite have to use Slavery to generate Muskets quickly.
3) I believe this could be done better than I did, so you trade earlier for needed techs. Popping a GE somewhere in the 300s would have allowed me to get Guilds much quicker and likewise Gunpowder. I honestly think you could get Gunpowder somewhere in the 400s with this strategy.
4) My being able to get Chemistry so early as well really bothered me a bit as I popped 3 turns after I got my 5 muskets done. Grenadiers versus Longbows was a thing of pure beauty.

Sorry for only having late save on Low Road. You can open log to see where I turned out. Well, on to the Ottomans…