[BNW] Warmonger Challenge Series - Game 2

[consentient]

The purpose of THIS series is just to exclusively explore play centered on conflict. For every game in this series, the following will always be true:

1. The only VCs enabled will be Domination and Time. Therefore, if a player runs into issues that stop them from completing the game via a Dom sweep, there will still be the option to 'hang on in there' and end up with the highest score, with war always a looming possibility
2. The save files will be enhanced with 2 workers and 2 combat units, as well as the first 4 techs in the tree. This makes for more explosive starts, and more exciting play, without being TOO MUCH of a buff in the context of a long game
3. There will be a theme that - hopefully - enhances the story of the game a little more. Reason for this is that those among us who have played 1000s of games probably crave SOMETHING about each game making it a little unique. Some of these themes will be tongue-in-cheek or provocative, but will always (IMO) land on the side of good taste and fair game.
4. The maps will be made with Hellblazer's Map Pack, which you can find here.

- - -

With that introduction out of the way, I offer you:

Warmonger Challenge - Game 2 - 'And Then There Were Two'

In this game you will play as Alexander (Deity, PANGAEA, Small, Standard Speed)

The theme is a surprise (that I hope you will enjoy)

Spoiler Starting position :

 

[mbbcam]

I've downloaded the file but it may take me a while to get round to playing it. Life is getting in the way! (On a philosophical note, I sometimes wonder why people call it "real life" -- is there any other kind? )

 

[ForkOfSpite]

(On a philosophical note, I sometimes wonder why people call it "real life" -- is there any other kind? )

Today? Yes - or, at least, we're most of the way there.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

Liberty comp bow fail - hoping to convert to arties (and later). I haven't yet figured out Liberty + early war on Immortal yet, so this isn't a surprising result on Deity. Thought I had it here, but no.

The spoiler has indirect information pertaining to the theme - so, you know, spoiler.

Turns 0-77

Spoiler :

Initial Map Thoughts
Feedback for initial builds?

Spoiler :

Didn't realize this until I started the game, but this start is an obvious Goddess of the Hunt game (+1 food from camps). So, my initial build order was shrine (T4), monument (T8), and granary (T14). Chopped three forests (two grassland furs and one hills deer) to speed those buildings up. Later, I chopped a plains fur (Oracle), but it probably would have been better to have both workers chop two rather than having one improve the horses. The granary might have been overkill, but I think it was worth it. Then again, I failed early war, so maybe not? I'm confident the shrine was a good call, though. Pantheon on T23 and not going for a religion, so I only have that one shrine (should probably sell it).

Expansion
Looking for feedback on initial social policy and expansion location choices.

Spoiler :

I was already set on Liberty, and since I've had unit cap problems with 3-City Liberty, I wanted to try 4-City Liberty. Given that mindset, I tried to work the plan into the land. Liberty 3 (collective rule) was on Turn 35 - one turn left on a library in the capital, so I should have started the settlers on Turn 36. However, I was fixated on the timing for Masonry and the library, so I started the Pyramids on Turn 36 instead. That delayed my third and fourth expansions by nine or ten turns. That said, I don't think that was the direct cause for the fail (late construction was the primary cause), but presumably, getting those cities planted sooner would have been better.

Also, for my fourth city, I was mesmerized by the four fish. So, that was another expansion not giving any new unique lux. Could have, and probably should have, gone inland so I could buy the copper. Also, that city caused me to detour for a 2-turn optics, and it looks like my first post-liberty policy will be here two turns before Medieval entry. However, now that I'm converting to more of a science game, those fish should help.

Turn 57 - Four-City Liberty:

Spoiler :

A = too good to pass up (especially given Goddess of the Hunt). However, no new unique lux there.
B = given that my C also has no new unique lux, I thought I needed two with this one (rather than B1 which just gave one). Would have preferred B2 for 1st-ring crab, but a barb axe was there (needed to buy wine and crab).
C = was heading for C2 but changed my mind for C4 and the four fish.

* Any feedback regarding expansions for a 4-City Liberty?
* Feedback for a 3-City Liberty?
* Suggestions for unit cap management with 3-City Liberty? (Should I just take the production penalty?)
* Feedback for choosing liberty? (First policy on Turn 13 - don't have a screenshot, so not sure how much map I had revealed. Probably not much since both initial scouts spent too much time towards Brussels.)

Capital Build Order
Feedback would be appreciated. The only army contributions from expansions were an archer and a hoplite. Fourth city (C) built library first - finished same turn as (A). Bought library in third city (B). Two scouts upgraded (T2, T41) - the later one was very late to the war effort (DOW on T67).

Spoiler :

* T4 - shrine
* T8 - monument
* T14 - granary
* T17 - scout
* T21 - archer
* T24 - archer
* T28 - hoplite
* T31 - archer
* T36 - library
* T45 - Pyramids
* T48 - settler
* T51 - settler (10% production hit until one of the settlers planted)
* T61 - oracle (free policy = Liberty 5, finisher for engineer on T64)
* T63 - hoplite
* T65 - circus
* T68 - National College (A & C expansion libraries completed T67, bought the library in B)
* T69 - companion cavalry
* T71 - companion cavalry
* T75 - market

Tech Order
No tech from ruins. As discussed, I regret the optics detour. I think late construction was the number one cause of the fail - better to go for construction before calendar and philosophy. But, given how good the capital was, I think writing before masonry was correct.

Clearly, late construction was wrong, but if I had gone for construction before calendar and philosophy, I would have run into a familiar problem - not enough blockers. Suggestions for timely army? Other suggestions (i.e. writing and bronze working)?

Spoiler :

* T13 - Trapping
* T23 - Bronze Working
* T30 - Writing
* T36 - Masonry
* T40 - Calendar
* T51 - Philosophy
* T54 - Wheel
* T59 - Construction
* T61 - Sailing
* T65 - Horseback Riding
* T68 - Mathematics
* T71 - Currency
* T73 - Optics

First War

Spoiler :

I DOWd Enrico early - thought I could "capture" a Merchant of Venice (killed, just like other great people of course). Worth it to cripple him. Made peace and we're besties - buying a 240 gp furs and sending me at least one trade route. Friends with top military Ghandi, too (trading duplicate lux though, so not making much with that friendship.)

First real DOW on T67 when I could plunder two trade routes:

Turn 67 - First Real DOW:

Spoiler :

I could have declared two or three turns earlier - that might have been the difference. The hoplite at the bottom of the screenshot has rough terrain 1 and cover 1, so I parked it on the iron to take the first hit between turns 68-69 (when my comp bows were in better position to close and shoot on T69). First blood on Palenque on T69, and I thought it was going well. But Pacal was able to rush in defense from Chichen Itza (he was also at war with the neighbor Northeast of him), and I unexpectedly lost a hoplite defending the right flank on T71. Lost a comp bow on T72. Walls up by T74 and Palenque was at 27 strength - should have quit then. Decided to sacrifice another hoplite and use pillage/worker repair cheese (a worker and I think 2 companion calvary were there by then - maybe the sixth comp bow too. Lost the sacrifice and a comp bow took some damage. Had a companion calvary attack across a river to damage (but not kill) a unit on T76 - didn't realize that ended movement leaving it in range of two city bombards. Lost a comp bow but somehow the horse survived - saw a pike in Tikal so pillaged as much as I could and made peace on T77.

My losses (2 hoplites, 2 comp bows) don't really matter since I'm not intending to come back with crossbows - aiming for arties instead. Unfortunately, they will be fresh arties, so I don't know if I can be fast enough.

 

[consentient]

Feedback on the expos. I don't like any of the placements. There are two possible first victims, and you're not forward settling either of them. There is no sense going coast unless tradition with cargo ships OR it just happens to be the best spot. In my game, I settled my 2nd city on the river to SW SE of C3 (and towards best 1st victim) and my 3rd city 3 squares to the E of where you have Ephesus, as it was the unique resource spot that made the most sense, and would have decent trade routes to the most NE civ.

So I did 3 city Liberty, starting 1st war with 6/7 composites on T57

BUT in my previous playthrough I did 3 city Honour and my archers had been much more effective.

For your build order, a 3rd Scout is unnecessary for this map, IMO, and I would have chopped the settler or Pyramids. I think Shrine is a waste too. I would almost never build it in a DomV attempt. So many better choices for those hammers.

For your first DoW, the biggest difference between what you're doing and both my playthroughs is that I had my expo forward settled so that they could literally UPGRADE and then ENGAGE. I also had like 3/4 workers there to lure units out of city and build war roads.

In that screenie you're also building a trireme, which I don't think can ever help you.

And in answer to your qn about the production cap, it's very normal to be up to 30% over until you get that first capture. Given the number of hammers involved at that stage of the game, it's not a big deal.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

Thanks - especially for production penalty and expo location advice (the trireme is a work boat for the crab, I think). Easy to see the usefulness of your first expo - something I'll keep in mind for later games.

T164 Update:
Saw that Enrico was marching against me (with the "largest" army against my last place demographics in about everything). I was about to go for Pacal, but this will work too - get some easy xp, so maybe I can have better arties later. Winning is probably out of reach, but at least I'll take out Enrico. Maybe I can get another capital before AI planes come online.

 

[Norlan]

Going to just spoiler tag this to not spoil the theme for people.

Spoiler Spoiler :

On my second go at this, on the first one i opened left side of liberty and then went right away into honor. My plan was to start pushing and leveling units at compbows, take just the left side of honor and go into commerce. All went well but Alexander was fighting with me for the first capital, i had to war dec him to take it from him and i was running into his muskets before i had steel for longswords to stand up against them. I managed to tech to unit parity but i would have needed to peace him out for a couple of turns and felt like this wasnt the kind of game i wanted to play and abandoned it.
To note i was kind of counting on oracle for this but it went really really early to maya, think its rly important to get the liberty scientist out faster if that plan is going to work.

Anyway i decided to go again and just see how it feels like if i finnish liberty first and start going a little bit later, im basicly in the same situation where Alexander is takingn Mayas capital, but im way stronger techwise, here is the issue tho and question for you all India is highrolling this game and i definitely need to pribe him or alex to start a war at each other, only india wont have nothing to with it and i feel way scummy pribing the one that im going to war dec a couple turns later I tried going without doing it and i got double ward by them in 2 turns. How much pribing do you all do, im definitely way too much of a wanna be purist when it comes to "silly" ai abuse like that but its definitely a thing i can improve on. The huge edge from it just feels a little bit silly sometimes.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

Responding to Norlan's post ...

Spoiler :

How much pribing do you all do, im definitely way too much of a wanna be purist when it comes to "silly" ai abuse like that but its definitely a thing i can improve on the huge edge from it just feels a little bit silly sometimes.

Gandhi warned me of an incoming attack with specifics (he had stolen at least one tech from me so not surprised with the specifics but seems a bit cheaty with the timing - he only has one spy). I was allies with Ragusa at the time so I could see the army. Maybe he was just trying to get through other AIs to attack Gandhi? Unlikely though, so I bribed him to attack Pacal instead. No one was willing to DOW him even though I had 60 gold/turn - he was military leader at that point. Think all of them DOWd anyway within 10 turns or so. I also bribed Pacal to backstab Sejong - was getting ready to head over there, but the next turn, I saw Enrico's army.

Maybe that explains why Enrico has the biggest army in my game right now? So much war going on out east - and I'm too weak to partake (until after handling Enrico).

 

[ForkOfSpite]

Final update ...

T181 Venice
T228 Palenque
T250 Seoul
T255 Delhi

And then there were two. And I'm good with that. Together with the last AI, we can rule the world!

Despite two failed DOWs (Pacal early, Gandhi after taking Venice), I think I could win the game if I choose to continue. Just got bombers and will have well promoted rocket arties in 11 turns. I have over 10,000 gold (6000 from a peace deal with Sejong) and gold purchasing abilities (mercantilism, big ben, mobilization). However, Gandhi will almost certainly have nukes before I could finish, but maybe I could just buy more defenses after he uses them.

I wasn't the only one with failed DOWs. Enrico DOW me on T159, and Sejong/Gandhi joint declared on me on T222 (same turn I researched ballistics and bought AA guns).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
final, final update: DomV Turn 266 - 7 turns after I DOW. Same turn researched Rocketry, so the upgrades weren't actually used. Someone did research atom bombs (nuclear fission?), but no one threatened me with nukes.

 

[lerrocco]

I was ill last week with food poisoning. With no energy for much else, I had a look at this game.
I don't claim any great strategy thus far, I have been reacting to game events.
I am 93 turns in, 2 capitals captured.

Spoiler to turn93 :

I settled the furs for the gold income and opened Tradition in the hope of picking up all the good resource tiles. Then through Honor. on T93 I am one policy away from completing Honor.
3 city opening, and towards the Mayans, who took great exception to my city and gathered a large army to come and take me out. I was planning a war with Maya.
My scout plundered 3 caravans from Venice, and Enrico came north, took Wellington and then came to me with a fairly big army of horses and bows and a couple of spearmen.
I held Enrico off with a couple of comp bows and a warrior, plus the city defences. I took his last spearman on the same turn he reduced my city defences to zero.

The Mayans split their forces, one half towards my Capital and the other to take my expo. I used a general for citadel defence and held off both armies, the capital was saved by a couple of newly upgraded archers, but I had cavalry online now as well. Just as I took Pacal`s last units Greece declared war on him and surrounded his capital and expos. My horseman couldnt get to Chichen Itza soon enough to steal the city capture, but my 3 comp bows some hoplites and a swordsman managed to take Palenque. Thanks Alex hehe.

My horseman went south to find Venice, to discover he had a barbarian army behind him, his capital was empty. So i gathered what I could of my main army and sent it south, I took Venice's expo and then Venice on turn 93.

I have Dof with Greece and India. I guess India will have to be my next target, though they have elephants and the Great Wall. I would go for Korea, but India is in the way. I am happy to keep my doppelganger for last, we are on good terms, seemingly, and the trades are useful. I think he will go for Korea next also, but he also has a DOF with India.

It was a good place to leave the game for now. in "real life" (a subject mentioned above) I have much to catch up with.

I detoured to optics to enable scout movement, only to learn the scout has to visit friendly territories to learn the new skill. Makes sense in game play, but a new rule for me, so I deleted the scout. I usually have a better idea of the world by this stage, but was fighting defensively for a lot of the game. The barbarians were keeping me busy in the early game.

Apart from Venice, my cities are connected with roads, something I usually neglect to do.

I need to consolidate my fighting force, but have some good promotions and I dont believe I lost a single unit in combat yet, which is quite something after 3 city captures !

I played the game in 2 session so far. Pre war and post war. I guess I have been at war for 30 turns now, more or less, but I dont remember the specifics, I played with brain fog as well as fog of war hehe.

I did build monuments and a couple of granaries, but mostly troops, no libraries or other infrastructure. I might buy a courthouse, I have enough gold. I have no religion, the ruins were not that kind to me in general, from memory.

Another curious thing. I captured Wellington from Venice, thinking I would liberate it, and have a CS ally. But it was treated as a normal city, I couldnt liberate it ?? so I razed it.