Warmonger penalty never leaves.

[Loucypher]

So yeah, this thing about the Warmonger penalty eventually leaving? Sure, sure. Except the whole friggin' chain of denouncements will keep coming the entire friggin' game anyway.
Early game (Turn 60) I got a rush from Montezuma on my roof. I barely managed to hold on to my capitol, and struck back slowly but steadily, eventually ending in obliterating the Aztecs. Now I know of the negative effects this gives and I was fully prepared to end up in a few other wars, but with Impis on my side I could fight them off. Which is exactly what happened, in two turns Washington, Isabella, Oda, Askia and Genghis all declared on me (only Napoleon on my continent did not). I fight them off while at the same time exploring the seas. Where Wu Zetian, Maria I, Darius, Bismark and Casimir all greet me with a denouncement within 5 turns.
I'm now at Turn 200 and having fought a few wars (Without taking a city), I'd have thought the warmonger penalty would slowly leave and maybe some normal diplomacy could happen again. Nope, I kept getting denounced because...yeah, why, actually? Because "other civs we like more then you have denounced you" as the only negative modifier. Heck, sometimes that modifier wasn't even there. But due to the "chain denouncements" its literally impossible for me to engage in any form of diplomacy.

Oh, and NOBODY denounced the Aztecs for attacking me. Despite me having normal relationships with the others including some DOF's...

This all on KING level, btw.

 

[DemonMaster]

War, war never changes.

- the Lone Wanderer.

Edit: There are so many other threads that discusses this, why don't you jump into one of those threads.

Spoiler :

 

[apocalypse105]

allways denounce a person before you dow someone lowers the penalty

 

[Loucypher]

allways denounce a person before you dow someone lowers the penalty

Here's the thing. I haven't DOW'd anyone. I retaliated against Montezuma sending 6 Jaguars and 4 Archers to my 1-archer-defended capitol (woodland based too, so candyland for his Jags). Nobody denounced Monty. But now I have a chain denouncement/DOW against me for retaliating like I did 100 turns ago. Making the initial penalty never go away.
Meanwhile, Genghis Khan is allowed 4 free DOW's (2 on me, 2 on CS's), Oda has 3 (2 on me, 1 on Genghis), and nobody denounces THEM...

 

[Spiceweasel]

I agree. The diplomacy modifiers don't take provocation into account, and it's frustrating. (Any human would thank you for getting rid of Monty.)

 

[Polisurgist]

If the only negative to your diplomacy that showed up was "Other civs we like more than you have denounced you," then quite literally, you do not actually have the warmonger penalty anymore.

 

[Loucypher]

If the only negative to your diplomacy that showed up was "Other civs we like more than you have denounced you," then quite literally, you do not actually have the warmonger penalty anymore.

Maybe not, but since it keeps rolling around the globe like this, the actual penalty I got for warmongering still exists - it now just moved to "other civs denounced you". I can't set up a single trade route - within one turn, all four of my routes got plundered because "loldeclarewaranddonteventrytoprepareyourselfforit". It's frustrating, really.

 

[bcaiko]

I agree. The diplomacy modifiers don't take provocation into account, and it's frustrating. (Any human would thank you for getting rid of Monty.)

At the very least, two DoWs by the same Civ within a short time frame should earn you the right to wipe someone off the face of the earth with little consequence except to the very most peaceful Civ personalities.

Chain denouncements are also frustrating, but they at least can be fortified against through some good behavior and currying someone's favor repeatedly.

 

[pilot00]

First of all I want to know what you did to Monty and he attacked you. I don't kid.

Secondly, what was your standing (diplo-wise) with the rest that denounced you? Did they have a DoF with Monty? If you had a DoF they wouldn't care.

 

[Polisurgist]

Maybe not, but since it keeps rolling around the globe like this, the actual penalty I got for warmongering still exists - it now just moved to "other civs denounced you". I can't set up a single trade route - within one turn, all four of my routes got plundered because "loldeclarewaranddonteventrytoprepareyourselfforit". It's frustrating, really.

Yeah, the overlapping nature is a bit of a pain and the earlier in the game you start killing, the worse the penalty is.

It's at this point that I'd probably just decide to live up to their expectations

 

[Alexastor]

Meh. I'm still waiting for BNW to arrive, but this sounds totally like CiV Vanilla.

I guess I'll have to fiddle with the files a bit to get this fixed.

 

[Polisurgist]

Meh. I'm still waiting for BNW to arrive, but this sounds totally like CiV Vanilla.

I guess I'll have to fiddle with the files a bit to get this fixed.

It's generally best not to wait until you've played a whole game before you start editing it. Don't want to waste time.

 

[Eunomiac]

In a game that does what it can to balance realism with playability, the total absurdity of the diplomacy system is one baffling mystery to me. It's like Firaxis outsourced the whole thing to another company, Deus Ex-style.

The sheer longevity of most of the diplo penalties (or, at the very least, the inability to "heal" them) is a complete disaster. How many years ago were France and England at each other's throats? China and Japan? US and Canada? And could you imagine what the diplomacy penalties against Germany would be, if diplomacy in Civ 5 were even remotely similar to how foreign relations function in the real world?

Diplomatic attitudes in Civ 5 should be based more on a civilization's "current status" (i.e. ideology, social policies, trade, land disputes, ongoing hostilities, etc.), and far---FAR---less on events that happened several thousand years ago.

 

[Polisurgist]

And could you imagine what the diplomacy penalties against Germany would be, if diplomacy in Civ 5 were even remotely similar to how foreign relations function in the real world?

If Otto von Bismarck were four thousand years old and had led Germany through all of that, we'd probably have a very different attitude toward them.

 

[Helmling]

Wait, did you eliminate Monty? The AIs hate it when you wipe someone off the map.

 

[DemonMaster]

Strange, in my game I JUST played, Monty died and no one on my continent hate me or anyone else. At least not more than Before the war.

And yes it was me who DoW him.

It's all in the wrist? (i.e. perhaps we have a different playing style).

 

[Loucypher]

First of all I want to know what you did to Monty and he attacked you. I don't kid.

Secondly, what was your standing (diplo-wise) with the rest that denounced you? Did they have a DoF with Monty? If you had a DoF they wouldn't care.

Monty and I had no diplomatic...ANYTHING before the fight. He came to ask me to fight Maria, I said no, and 5 turns later his army was at my doorstep. Everyone else who denounced me was either neutral or even DoF (America, Japan) before they went to war.
It's now turn 270 and they still keep DoW'ing me, all because "they believe you're a warmongering menace to the world". The civs on the other continent have calmed down, but Japan, America, Portugal, Songhai and Spain keep going at me. The problem is that either the terrain is very hard to pass (Spain, Songhai, Portugal) or they have armies that take too much slogging through (Japan, America).
The fact though that the penalty still seems to apply this late just makes me go...uuugh. Hell, I've given Spain the city they GAVE ME UPON CALLING PEACE back in an effort to get some favor with them. I've given Japan free resources. But no, they keep. coming. at. me.
Just because I wiped Monty off 1000's of years ago. Oh, and none of my attackers get denounced even by those I do have a DoF with.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Here's the thing. I haven't DOW'd anyone. I retaliated against Montezuma sending 6 Jaguars and 4 Archers to my 1-archer-defended capitol (woodland based too, so candyland for his Jags). Nobody denounced Monty. But now I have a chain denouncement/DOW against me for retaliating like I did 100 turns ago. Making the initial penalty never go away.
Meanwhile, Genghis Khan is allowed 4 free DOW's (2 on me, 2 on CS's), Oda has 3 (2 on me, 1 on Genghis), and nobody denounces THEM...

I've said *all* along that the Warmonger penalty should *only* apply to situations where you actually do the DoW-with that penalty being modified downwards if you denounce them and/or they break a promise to you (Settling, Bullying or Spying for instance)....but modified *upwards* if the other party has a DoF and/or a Mutual Defense Agreement with the the other Civ(s).

Oh & yes these penalties should decay after a reasonable length of time!

Aussie.

 

[rodrigoq]

I got chain denounced for founding a city last night. All 4 of my best friends forver love me..., till I build a city, all 4 denounce me for aggressive expansion. Now.. the whole world has denounced me, and as soon as one expires, they re denounce. I'm solving this problem.. by kiling them off, one by one.

 

[Falconiano]

I believe diplomacy is the only real flaw of this game.
Having your entire diplomacy with all civs screwed up forever because you declared war on an army in the 4th millennium BC is just unacceptable - let alone the denouncing chains.

I removed them both and the game plays perfectly; I still get the same amount of warring, backstabbing and all, but there is no such thing as an infinite penalty unless I do something really bad like backstabbing a friend or broking promises.
It works as it would in real life.

To make an example, in real life Austria, England and Russia backstabbed Napoleon I believe 7-9 times back in the days. Italy/Spain also backstabbed once after campaign of Russia.
They even backstabbed through a diplomatic marriage.
Germany and Italy plundered France in WW2.

By Civ's logic today France should give no embassies, no trading, closed borders, world-wide denouncements, stealing territories, trying to convert everyone and whatnot.