Surely the real problem here is that we still don't have the option that the AI has of requesting they move their troops from our borders or declare war? We have to wait to be hit first - thus losing the strategic and tactical advantage or suffer a diplomatic penalty that stays with the player for the rest of the game.
Warmonger penalty never leaves.
- Thread starter Loucypher
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Moriarte
Immortal
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And they do. (effectively) Actually, in BNW you have more tools to fix diplomatic relations with another civ, when compared with GK.
It's a numeric scale from (say) -10 to +10 with -10 being a true friend and +10 an unforgivable enemy. So, every little thing shifts you one way or the other. You don't stay at +10 forever, if you constantly do things which AI appreciates.
I managed to keep Washington (at my borders) as best buddy throughout the game (even though i started off by killing entire Songhai empire before turn 90.) He denounced me at first, but then i forgave him for bullying CS (about 10 times), forgave him for spying, sold him stuff, liberated his workers from barbs, voted for him being the world host, etc, etc. Mid game he came to me with DoF and we stayed friends, while i conquered the world.
Anyway, i understand the frustration of Lucifer. Sometimes things just happen and they're only fixable in retrospect, if that. Take a deep breath, exhale, start another game
.Yep, Moriarte's advice is good, as always. You can have a war-monger penalty and still get through the game just fine as long as you compensate. Some AI are flavored to hate war-mongers more than others, but generally you can still have access to DoF's, trades, etc.
Securion
Civ Veteran
This is why they need to put Casus Belli into this game. Every other serious strategy game have it for a reason.
here is a pro tip. Cities gained through lawsuit don't effect you in anyway.
Terrorize the enemy with razing and pillaging, then when he sues, take a couple of cities then auction them off. Later on, then you get order, you can throw diplomacy into the wind and chain conquer the world.
Terrorize the enemy with razing and pillaging, then when he sues, take a couple of cities then auction them off. Later on, then you get order, you can throw diplomacy into the wind and chain conquer the world.
Polisurgist
King
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I'm guessing you're also one of the people pissed that it's harder to sucker the AI into getting into a stupidly lopsided war with you just by pushing a few obvious buttons?
The warmonger penalty now is based almost entirely on how early you declare war and how many cities you take or raze, relative to the size of your opponent's empire. You don't, and you shouldn't, get a break because you somehow managed to annoy a robot.
The warmonger penalty does decay, and relatively quickly. The chain of denunciations that follows could use some fixing, since if you get 2-3 civs denouncing you a turn or two apart, each denunciation leads to another and they spiral for a long time. That's the OP's problem, not the fact that you can't stand around yelling "NOT TOUCHING YOU" until you get punched.
Ryoga
King
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This shouldn't be in the BNW subforum, it's always been like that. The chain of denouncing and the warmonger penalties are still there in BNW as they were before.
And no, once a warmonger you'll always be a warmonger the AI just hate you less than before for that.
Whether it "goes away" or not it's only a matter of perspective. Again this happened in G&K too.
Basically let's say you are friendly with a civ, they don't think you are a warmonger even if everyone else thinks you are. Then somehow they change opinion and they start thinking you are a warmonger even though you haven't started any war nor conquered anything in the mean time.
Likewise if you get a civ to like you they can forget that you are a warmonger, but should the relationship deteriorate they will remember that again.
That's how it works in Civ V, an AI that hates you will remember every single reason to hate you.
And no, once a warmonger you'll always be a warmonger the AI just hate you less than before for that.
Whether it "goes away" or not it's only a matter of perspective. Again this happened in G&K too.
Basically let's say you are friendly with a civ, they don't think you are a warmonger even if everyone else thinks you are. Then somehow they change opinion and they start thinking you are a warmonger even though you haven't started any war nor conquered anything in the mean time.
Likewise if you get a civ to like you they can forget that you are a warmonger, but should the relationship deteriorate they will remember that again.
That's how it works in Civ V, an AI that hates you will remember every single reason to hate you.
Big J Money
Emperor
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Wait, I thought this is why this issue is in this subforum:
-) To get the warmonger penalty in Vanilla and G&K you had to be the one to start the war
-) In BNW they changed it so that you can get the warmonger penalty for continuing a war
Is there anything incorrect about this? I've always understood, up until now, that one only gets the warmonger penalty if one DoWs.
Edit: And to answer the OP about the nature of "the penalty never leaving", there are two things to say
1) Some civs forgive penalties, others don't.
2) However, the civs that DON'T forget the penalty will continue to denounce and even DOW you. If they have friends, then those friends who would otherwise forgive you will also join in and denounce you. I call this the "Spiral of Hate"
So I'm curious which you are most frustrated by; the fact that some civs don't forgive or the fact that the Spiral of Hate seems to overpower civs who otherwise would forgive you. I do kinda see the Spiral of Hate as a bug in the way that it seems to override forgiveness. It's funny to see you so frustrated though because you sound like a high school kid at the mercy of a terribly brutal clique (sorry).
-) To get the warmonger penalty in Vanilla and G&K you had to be the one to start the war
-) In BNW they changed it so that you can get the warmonger penalty for continuing a war
Is there anything incorrect about this? I've always understood, up until now, that one only gets the warmonger penalty if one DoWs.
Edit: And to answer the OP about the nature of "the penalty never leaving", there are two things to say
1) Some civs forgive penalties, others don't.
2) However, the civs that DON'T forget the penalty will continue to denounce and even DOW you. If they have friends, then those friends who would otherwise forgive you will also join in and denounce you. I call this the "Spiral of Hate"
So I'm curious which you are most frustrated by; the fact that some civs don't forgive or the fact that the Spiral of Hate seems to overpower civs who otherwise would forgive you. I do kinda see the Spiral of Hate as a bug in the way that it seems to override forgiveness. It's funny to see you so frustrated though because you sound like a high school kid at the mercy of a terribly brutal clique (sorry).
My experience is based on king difficulty.
In my last game as brazil I ended up having to take china's capital to get them to stop attacking me every other turn and never declared war I did have a warmonger penalty when I did take the capital of the people who attacked me but it went away as everyone started to like me more and I had open borders, friendships, and defensive pacts with 6 of the 10 remaining civilizations.
On the other hand I have an ongoing marathon game as Assyria that has gone into modem times and I took 9 of the 11 capital generally leaving the AI's with a couple token cities so I can make fun of them. I have HUGE dipolomatic penalties and embargos against me and other things.
So it seems to vary. don't know the numbers.
Polisurgist
King
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Nope. In BNW, they actually changed it so that the penalty for starting a war is way less, as is the specific penalty for wiping out a civilization. But the penalty for each city you take is increased (slightly more complex, it's proportional to the number of cities relative to your opponent's empire, so taking one city from a three-city empire is worse than doing it to a runaway with 20 cities).
But the net effect is that people whose entire strategy revolved around poking at the AI until it declared war, then mounting a genocide campaign, have a much harder time of it in BNW. It isn't that the warmonger penalty is worse, it's that they used to be able to avoid it by following a preset strategy that they picked up off the internet.
Ryoga
King
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Really? I could swear I got warmonger penalty in G&K by conquering cities of those who attacked me first.
Polisurgist
King
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You'd get a penalty for wiping out a civ regardless of who started the war. The silly thing pre-BNW is that you could "accidentally" start a war through a defense pact or something like that and actually take a diplo hit with the civ you had the pact with, or with a civ who asked you to join in a war. Now, you can just not take a city during your accidental war, and you won't take any hit with someone who asks you to go to war (though you'll still take it with others).
Magil
Monarch
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One nice thing I noticed in BNW was that when everyone hated Shaka, I didn't get any warmongering penalties whatsoever for wiping him out. And by everyone hated Shaka, I mean everyone REALLY hated Shaka--he was the only autocratic leader after my world ideology proposal had switched nearly all the other civs to freedom, some revolutions later. Lots of denounciations and about two-three people periodically asking me to DoW him every few turns. Well, the only person who seemed to be bothered by it was Gustav, who already didn't like me because I had a DoF with him when he declared war on someone that I had a defensive pact with. Surprisingly, the "you have declared war on a civ you had a declaration of friendship with" penalty that appeared on every leader actually didn't seem to be enough to make them hate me either. I can only guess the shared ideology modifier is really strong.
That's not good. If you get DOW'ed the only option is to get attacked, defend yourself, but never even look at the instigators land. Be a whipping boy, take everything they dish out and just smile if you want to win anything other than domination.
It's either be a doormat or warmonger, nothing in between, that's messed up.
Polisurgist
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There are as many increments between doormat and warmonger as your opponent has cities. This whining about how nobody likes you when you're conquering the planet really gets tiresome.
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adwcta
King
My idea to fix the denunciation chain (which to be fair to BNW, was a G&K and Vanilla thing as well):
At the point in which any bright red mark clears through time decay, for 30 turns (or are denounciations 50 turns?) you get a decaying modifier that starts at half of the value of the height of the negative diplo modifier. Call it "They believe you have reformed your ways!" or whatever. It won't affect late game warmonger penalty, because those negative diplo modifiers won't have time to clear, but it will allow early-mid game warmongers to make a comeback and play a diplo end-game (see historical: almost every european nation in this game).
Because, do you WANT the initial chain-denounce, since that's realistic diplo, you just don't want it to be endless over time.
At the point in which any bright red mark clears through time decay, for 30 turns (or are denounciations 50 turns?) you get a decaying modifier that starts at half of the value of the height of the negative diplo modifier. Call it "They believe you have reformed your ways!" or whatever. It won't affect late game warmonger penalty, because those negative diplo modifiers won't have time to clear, but it will allow early-mid game warmongers to make a comeback and play a diplo end-game (see historical: almost every european nation in this game).
Because, do you WANT the initial chain-denounce, since that's realistic diplo, you just don't want it to be endless over time.
Polisurgist
King
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So you're basically saying that instead of having a negative mark of X for 30 turns, you have like a negative mark of X/n, where n is the number of turns since the mark was initiated? So one civ who ends the period of their denunciation isn't affected by their ally also denouncing you?
I like the decaying penalty. I'm reasonably sure it already works that way for the warmonger penalty, but not for denunciations.
adwcta
King
Not exactly, it won't change either how denunciation works or how warmongering penalty works... it's just its own modifier that offsets the denunciation incentive. So, if an AI is friends with 6 others, who are all chain denouncing you, that's something like a +60 for the AI to denounce you again, even if it has zero problems with you or what you're doing... so it probably will. On the other hand, you can give up to -40 diplo worth of gifts (maybe -30, I forget), the Embassy is like -5, if you propose a resolution or share an ideology or religion or whatever that's much more, share some intrigue, and it all adds up to sort of evening out, but having an additional -20 would definitely swing the balance back in your favor. Once you get one friend who's friends with the other AIs, you can break the cycle.
Basically, the problem is right now it's often literally impossible to work your way back, because +60 from chain denouncement incentives AIs who like to play nice to endless denounce you, even if you share no other negative diplo. Adding a short-term one-time bonus for reforming makes it actually possible to come back (although, you would still have to work at it, and probably give gifts).
The denouncement chain comes from the idea that people like to gang up on a "Villain", which is true. Consider how the Mongols or the Huns were portrayed in places that had no direct contact with either group. I want to keep that as a factor in the AI decision making, but to also allow for the warmonger to stack positive diplo modifiers to come back from the hole. Right now, Ideology (paired with other positive modifiers) is the only thing powerful enough to sway an AI to step back from the chain denouncing. That shouldn't be absolute. The offset diplo bonus would, for a short period after each AI thinks you are no longer a warmonger (or whatever other bad thing decays) offer you a window to make amends and get in the AI's good graces to break the chain for that AI (and the less AI in the chain, the weaker the chain is for all the other AIs).
It allows for the game to be more dynamic, and as a consequence, it will penalize limited amounts of early war less in the late game than the current system, while keeping the penalty during the era of aggression (or counter-aggression), and for however long the AI cares about the aggression, the same.
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