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Warmongers, lookie here please.

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by WickedSmurf, Aug 22, 2003.

  1. asabahi

    asabahi Warlord

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    Immortals are still cheaper than MI. As the persians, if you hit an early, despotic golden age and use it to expand, and build the Great Lib, than you can use the Gold earned from not researching to hurry improvements, such as marketplaces, and etc. And once education is learned, cheap universities. With immortals you can cripple anyone near you, specially foes that have strong UU later in the game. Weaken and cripple all your neighbors so later you can finish them off. You can accomplish that all in the ancient age. Later with hurrying marketplaces and other improvements and building cheap Lib, and a large empire no one can catch up to you in tech race (even if they somehow trigger their golden age). The point being in warmongering, an early advantage in military and amount of land (size empire) assures an early domination victory, even before you reach military tradition. And immortals as an offensive unit become obselete only when Riflemen show up.
     
  2. SolarFlare

    SolarFlare Privateer at large

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    The point is, with an early UU you can't do this. You merely jumped to the assumption that once your golden age ended, you would astonishly expand like mad and build improvements that you didn't build before because you were producing Immortals instead. Your reasoning is severely flawed.
    Ha, that's just a bit of a stretch ;).
     
  3. Brohz

    Brohz Confused

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    I think inmortals are the best UU in the game, becase they can defeat all of the other units in the ancient era. This has a HUGE long term impact, because you can cut all the close competition from the root, and when the immortals become useless (with the rifleman) you have a great empire, and with the money it provides to you and the cheap libraries and universities, The persians become the most advanced. Adding the greater production rate and faster workers, the Persians are one of the best CIVs in the game.:king:
     
  4. asabahi

    asabahi Warlord

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    SolarFlare, here how my reasoning is not flawed. GA triggered by immortal, build a huge army of immortals, and build a couple of wonders on the side including the Great Lib. Your immortal army in the ancient age will destroy any civ it goes against. With expansion (more cities) you can support a larger army so your income is not going to get hurt. Mean while you should be looking to get luxurary resources. That will cause a decrease in corruption (WLKD), therefore more productive. After weaking one civ, attack the next civ, and on and on. And if you do not think immortals are effective all the way up to riflemen, stick your favorite civ and persians on an island and don't attack until waves of immortals come down on you.
     
  5. SolarFlare

    SolarFlare Privateer at large

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    Think about what you're trying to do here. You're (1) building a "huge" army, (2) building "a couple of" wonders, (3) destroying (not just fighting!) civilizations, (4) expanding (building settlers and granaries). All this, when you only have iron working. At this point, you will have how many cities? Less than a dozen? And you expect to keep up expansion at the same rate as the AIs (you don't want to fall behind, do you?) while also building dozens of military units. You can't do all these things well at once. Especially on higher difficulty levels.
    Now you're changing what you said before. If I did that, I'd be attacked before I got to riflemen, so the test has nothing to do with that anyway. And there is a difference between obsolescence and effectiveness.
     
  6. asabahi

    asabahi Warlord

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    Why would I build settlers? I am taking over other civ's cities and keeping them. I wouldn't start my ancient age war utill I had gotten Lit. so I can use the GA to build the Great Lib. Once I have expanded to the point that I cannot expand anymore, and that happens for me half way through the ancient age, I start preparing my immortal army for attack. If you want to win quickly through militristic methods you keep going to war with one civ, beat them down and get techs and gold for peace, and than attack another civ and on and on. Usually I have 10 cities before I go to war and the persians other trait makes for easy road and mine building to get good production. With the golden age I am building 4 to 5 immortals per 1-2 turns. My point is with the Persians you can expand much more than other civs early in the game. The triggering of the GA is not problematic because in an ancient war, cities do not flip back as often and you have all the time you need to build the improvements you need in those captured cities.
     
  7. SolarFlare

    SolarFlare Privateer at large

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    If you settle for enemy cities, they may be distant, poorly placed and highly corrupt. You need to have some of your own cities to fill the gaps.

    Look, I'm not trying to say your idea is not feasible. It certainly is. The original point of this thread was to debate the best warmongering civ on a huge map. Sure the Persians are great in the Ancient era, no question about it. But what I'm saying is that no matter how much you want to believe it, their UU alone will not earn the conquest victory so desired.
     
  8. Darkness

    Darkness Shadow creature

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    No offense Asabahi: But Immortals only become obsolete when riflemen show up? You're not really serious, are you? Immortals become obsolete in the early middle age, when knights pick of your immortals one by one on their way to the target city (which takes a long time, considering the one movement) and fortified pikemen and especially musketman can effectively defend against immortals. You'll lose them by shiploads because immortals don't have the retreat capability.
    Sure Immortals are great units for a short ancient age war on a not too big mao, but by the time you reach your second target civ, you'll start losing immortals by huge numbers.
     
  9. jack merchant

    jack merchant Internationalist

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    I'm not going to discuss warmongering on huge maps (my computer can't deal with those), but a couple of things come to mind.....

    - Immortals are 25% cheaper than MedInf and almost 60% cheaper than knights - which means you've got yourself a better deal on building them even without the retreat capability as long as you remember to bring enough pikes to cover. With the pointy-stick method of acquiring tech, the only thing you ever need to do is research IW at minimum science (and maybe pottery)
    -However, I personally prefer Legions for warmongering as they're just indestructible, promote more often and your chances for getting leaders with them (and thus, the crucial GL) are consequently higher.
    - War chariots are a no-brainer, but I'm not sure a jag-rush would work on deity.
    - for the Iroquis, a similar strategy like the one for the Persians might work (yet to try it out though) - except you build chariots instead of warriors in preparation for the upgrade. MW's will also do well against pikes, so you should be able to get a GA in republic or switch halfway through.

    I'm actually not all that fond of middle-ages warmongering civs - on deity, the AIs will be quick to gunpowder so unless you can cut off their salt quickly, capturing their cities will be a bloody slogging match rather than a blitzkrieg. Also, their cities will have more culture, so more resistors. And they'll be in republic, so able to buy in other AIs against you.
    I'd go so far as to suggest that the Chinese are actually better for early warmongering than for middle ages action, as building religious and scientific infrastructure will take forever, and you'll need at least some of it. This would suggest the Ottomans (on emperor then - on deity you don't 'beeline' towards anything !) or the Germans, who are well-suited to both early and late war.

    On the whole though, it's important to realize that the GA need not necessarily be used for infrastructure - you can always build that later. Territory on the other hand, cannot be acquired 'later' if you want to put it to use right away. The goal of early war should simply be to grab as much land as you can - after that, you can play tech catchup while slowly building up your infrastructure, and by the IA, you'll usually find yourself in an excellent position.
     
  10. Clown2TheLeft

    Clown2TheLeft Prince

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    While a Persian may well use the Immortal unit to his advantage in the ancient arena and into the middle ages, I would not count it as an excellent civ with which to warmonger. Cheap libraries are wonderful--if you're at peace. For Persia to get the most out of their libraries and Universities, they should be in Republic or Democracy: neither government lends itself well to warmongering. The civ can best be used in other ways because of its traits.

    China, with its industrious trait as well as militaristic, along with the 4/3/3 Rider, is a compelling choice with which to wage near-constant war. Roads move armies and captured workers are fast enough to bother keeping, right? True. I like the Rider--or extremely dislike it, if it is being used against me.

    However, I believe the best civ, overall, with which to wage constant war is Egypt. Industrious/religious. The benefits of this should be obvious to everyone:--

    You can keep the people happy with cheap temples, and go ahread and declare war while in Democracy or Republic and keep the GPT bonus of these traits for a few turns into the war before switching to a more war-friendly gov--and suffering from no anarchy when you do so.

    There are roads everywhere and anywhere with industriousness so linking to strategic resources with this civ is no problem.

    True, the War Chariot is about useless as a UU, but you only need ONE to get a GA...

    Later!

    --The Clown to the Left
     
  11. sysyphus

    sysyphus So they tell me

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    Persia.

    Immortals allow you to rule the Ancient Era, giving you the early leg up that will all but guarantee victory.
     
  12. barron of ideas

    barron of ideas Barron

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    If it's not too late to vote, my ballot goes to Persia. I haven't conquered the world with them, victories tend to come from UN or Space. But they do get me all my continent with some outlying islands. I almost never build spears or pikes, upgrade costs eat me alive. I'd rather just build muskets.

    Maybe I am a BAD warmonger. I strongly recommed Immortals as an adjunct to a builder strategy, with just enough war to make building lots available. Everyone knows how poorly the AIs do beachead invasions. I find my Immortals are useful even into the Cavaly age in fighting off the one or two Cav dropped off in most seaborn invasions Offense of 4 beats defense of 3, and the cost of 3 or 4 Immortals balances out one Cavalry. Need some Cavary for beach patrol, of course, but you get some leaders from elite Immortals killing one point enemy cavalry that retreated from combat moments before. Immortals on road (or RR!!) are quite mobile as defenders, compared to attacking Cavalry.

    I am almost never sorry I built an Immortal.
     

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