Warring on normal game speed

Hugethman

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Jan 3, 2016
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how on earth do you war on normal game speed? My success is so limited on Immortal.

By the time I have built up a large enough stack to wipe an AI (done in the most efficient way possible) they've already got defenders capable of defending the rush.

What I have in mind particularly are elepult rushes and cuirassier rushes. They are so much harder on normal speed.

Is it simply a case of not being good enough? As I have no such problems when I play on marathon :D I've also seen some players conquer a huge map on normal so I guess its just me, but any tips that might be glaringly obvious would be greatly appreciated.
 
What kind of dates are you getting on your rushes (approximately)?

For Cuirs you ideally want to take MT with Lib and then upgrade some units to Cuirs with gold if at all possible. You also need to whip reinforcements pretty aggressively.
 
I was having that problem a lot until I used slavery more heavily, although its still a challenge. Having one super production city with the Heroic Epic is great, you might even get it to produce a unit every turn on normal speed. I agree with Izuul that upgrading to cuirs is good, its really expensive, like how you pay 50 gold to upgrade a unit that only costs 20 less hammers, but it saves valuable time.
 
By the time I have built up a large enough stack to wipe an AI (done in the most efficient way possible) they've already got defenders capable of defending the rush.
This might be one problem. You don't need a stack large enough to wipe out an AI before declaring. You only need enough units for first target, which could be one or two cities. As long as you have reinforcements coming in, you don't need any more units than those that will immediately see battle. Strike sooner, aim for important cities first, then you cripple their research and they won't reach tech for counter unit in time.

Some other things:
-Super medic obligatory. Use promotions for healing and plan your healing to avoid wasting turns on that.
-You don't always need healing to full strength. A 10.8 strength cuir is just as good at mopping up severely wounded units as a full strength cuir. A 0.2 strength catapult bombards city defenses just as good as a full strength pult.
-Using later Great Generals for promotions in the field is mostly better than settling them on normal speed. You need to build 10 units with settled GG for same XP gain you get in the field. But in the field you get to use this XP immediately and you can target it on the units that need it the most.
-Don't be afraid of losses. Sometimes you have really bad odds on top defender, but attacking immediately can still be better than waiting for stronger units or bombarding one more turn.
-Keep your army busy. A unit doing nothing while waiting for reinforcements is a wasted unit. Look for opportunities to pillage, capture workers, kill stray units out in the open and lure tough defenders out of cities. Or just scout the next city instead of passively doing nothing.
-The AI is capable of more stupid things than you can imagine. Be ready to take advantage when this happens. Typical example would be fear of whips. Some players would assume the AI always whips another unit when you approach a city and not move in before they have enough units to handle this extra defender. This is not at all true. The AI might instead whip a worker or settler for you to grab. Or they might move out an existing defender. I've even seen the AI move a galley into their threatened capital and loading some defenders onto the galley right before my attack.
-As already mentioned by others whip whip and whip more. You need the army fast.

Btw. This thread belongs in regular Strategy&tips, not the strategy articles subforum.
 
Yes Hugethman, this Warlords on Emperor player knows whereof you speak. Almost always play random leader and opponents, temperature plus sea level, standard map (shuffle) on normal speed.

Whenever prosecuting a war (usually start in ancient age with whatever's available to avoid getting boxed in) the beginning is usually successful but invariably research slows to a crawl as war weariness, whip angst and unit support escalate. Even if the original victim gets wiped (in two or three wars, since one must(?) bring up siege to bust interior cities w/"cultural" defenses), by that time it's 1500 AD or later and I'm fielding medieval units while remaining opponents have cavalry and/or rifles. Next thing you know, so-and-so has completed Apollo Program while yours truly is still researching late Medieval or early Industrial.

Tried with Huecha Warriors , Swords with Axes, Chariots and Horse Archers, or Elepults, but always lose in the end. Perhaps there's some "trick" I'm missing but looking at the videos and forum games can't see what it is. No doubt it has something to do with being too lenient with the whip, but are the above-mentioned units (excepting Elepults) w/o siege supposed to go up against capital cities of 100% or greater culture defense and half a dozen Longbows? Even a Supermedic can't heal the survivors fast enough to beat off counterattacks should they, by some miracle, succeed in the assault. And by the time Elepults knock out an opponent the same deficiency in research comes back to haunt the victory parade.

Not that I'm complaining. It's an extremely challenging, entertaining game, and have had modest success with Space Race and Diplomacy--in either case prosecuting multiple short-duration wars to nibble territory while maintaining a decent tech rate and reasonable diplomatic relations. Seem to do better on Archipelago or Fractal maps rather than Pangea; it's pleasing to actually build a civilization and watch your cities grow. But it would sure be nice to put a Domination win under the belt, even at this "low"(!?) level.

Thanks for your kind attention and happy gaming!
 
but are the above-mentioned units (excepting Elepults) w/o siege supposed to go up against capital cities of 100% or greater culture defense and half a dozen Longbows?

Axes, Chariots and Horse Archers are the only units that can attack without siege (because they come so early). Later on, Cuirassiers and Cavalry if you have a tech lead. Everyone else needs siege. Note that Axe + Chariots rushes can be difficult on Emperor already if you run into early metal units or Protective Archers on hills.

The bottom line is: speed. You both want to research your target tech fast, and then produce your target unit(s) fast. The first is done through early cottages and/or bulbing, and through not researching other techs not needed immediately (for example, if I want Catapults I will usually go Writing - Mathematics - Construction and not research Aesthetics or Currency first). The second is often done through heavy whipping and chopping.

Some target dates: You should be able to attack with Catapults + support units by around 500 BC. Horse Archers by 1000 BC. Trebuchets + support units by 1AD. Cuirassiers by 800AD. If you manage that you are halfway there.

As to the economy crashing in war:

It's true that early wars (I would say pre-Trebuchets) are hard on your economy in the beginning due to whip anger, war anger and little infrastructure and cottages. But if you can reach Alphabet, Currency and then Code of Laws in time, the higher number of cities you have will more than make up for that economically. In the medium term, having 10 cities which are decently developed will beat having 5 cities with great infrastructure.

The other way is to go for later wars (Trebuchets and after) which allows you to develop your cities beforehand and recover faster from the crash. Of course, this also means you have to build more units as the AI stacks are bigger, but if there's enough good land to settle peacefully before the war then it can be better.
 
The bottom line is: speed. You both want to research your target tech fast, and then produce your target unit(s) fast. The first is done through early cottages and/or bulbing, and through not researching other techs not needed immediately (for example, if I want Catapults I will usually go Writing - Mathematics - Construction and not research Aesthetics or Currency first). The second is often done through heavy whipping and chopping.

Some target dates: You should be able to attack with Catapults + support units by around 500 BC. Horse Archers by 1000 BC. Trebuchets + support units by 1AD. Cuirassiers by 800AD. If you manage that you are halfway there.

As to the economy crashing in war:

It's true that early wars (I would say pre-Trebuchets) are hard on your economy in the beginning due to whip anger, war anger and little infrastructure and cottages. But if you can reach Alphabet, Currency and then Code of Laws in time, the higher number of cities you have will more than make up for that economically. In the medium term, having 10 cities which are decently developed will beat having 5 cities with great infrastructure.

The other way is to go for later wars (Trebuchets and after) which allows you to develop your cities beforehand and recover faster from the crash. Of course, this also means you have to build more units as the AI stacks are bigger, but if there's enough good land to settle peacefully before the war then it can be better.

OK thanks. It sounds so clearcut but heck, last game as Alex did the cottage bit then went after Augustus with Axes and Swords. Took 5 cities in the first rush, then got construction and went after Rome, which had the Mids. But the turn after declaring Napoleon attacked--he'd been pleased with me before, the rat!--and that was that: he already had Knights and Rifles!

Seems research is the problem. After checking AZ's Stalin essay (Part 1) on Immortal, noticed he didn't build a single cottage but was ahead in tech through use of specialists and settled GP's. Plus he was spamming wonders like crazy. Need to be more versatile in thinking, eh wot?

Thanks again and wish me luck!
 
Seems research is the problem. After checking AZ's Stalin essay (Part 1) on Immortal, noticed he didn't build a single cottage but was ahead in tech through use of specialists and settled GP's. Plus he was spamming wonders like crazy. Need to be more versatile in thinking, eh wot?

Settled specialists under Representation (=Pyramids) are strong, but more often than not you would be better off NOT building Pyramids (and most of the other wonders) and expanding more instead.

Good luck with your conquests! If you want specific advice on your game better open a thread on the Strategy subforum where you post saves and pictures as you play, we will be able to tell you where you can improve.
 
Settled specialists under Representation (=Pyramids) are strong, but more often than not you would be better off NOT building Pyramids (and most of the other wonders) and expanding more instead.

Good luck with your conquests! If you want specific advice on your game better open a thread on the Strategy subforum where you post saves and pictures as you play, we will be able to tell you where you can improve.

Right, posting games and pictures would be best. But since I'm playing Warlords--it's complex enough without adding Apostolic Palace, extra techs, espionage points, non-lethal siege, etc.--specific advice might be impertinent, plus my interest in the game has a manic-depressive aspect so it's hard to predict whether I'd be able to keep focus over several weeks or months of instruction. Better for all concerned that any progress made is through the School of Hard Knocks :lol:. Cheers!

Edit: Did a double-take on your tech path. In that last game against Auggie and Old Boney I researched Alphabet and Currency BEFORE Construction. At the time it seemed like the latter would take too long, and usually can trade Alpha or Currency for advantage. Maybe that was the problem. So had I done Construction first, what then? Sooner or later one must have Alpha and Currency, no? So how can they be obtained most efficiently? (Please bear in mind Aesthetics is not an option in Warlords.) Thanks.
 
Thanks v much elite troops for the tips :) Gotta say I always forget the medic and yes the stacks are indeed sometimes too large.

Elepult rushes I dont really have a date because I use it so little. I aim for liberalism having got nationalism at 1000AD as is standard. On Marathon I can get it like 250 years earlier sometimes if I war early with Axes.

So I suppose I expect my cuirassier rush to happen around 1100-1200 AD. But by 1400 they've got bloody grenadiers! Small window IMO. I once heard normal game speed is best suited to standard, epic to large, marathon to huge. Yet even on the standard map I'm pushing it a bit.
 
That's quite late for cuirs. For an effective cuir rush, you want to mainly tech the upper part of the tech tree, trade for the lower part. Great Scientists can be used to bulb Philo and Edu. You can also double bulb edu. A typical strategy is to grab the Music Artist, then do a golden age in Caste/Pacifism to pump out Great Scientists for bulbing edu. If you have marble you can go Nationalism before edu to build Taj Mahal for the final push to Lib. Then Lib->MT. Don't build any buildings that won't pay back before Lib. Meaning no markets or unis. Do build barracks and forges in most cities by the time you do get MT. And build wealth/failgold to get you to Lib faster.
 
Edit: Did a double-take on your tech path. In that last game against Auggie and Old Boney I researched Alphabet and Currency BEFORE Construction. At the time it seemed like the latter would take too long, and usually can trade Alpha or Currency for advantage. Maybe that was the problem. So had I done Construction first, what then? Sooner or later one must have Alpha and Currency, no? So how can they be obtained most efficiently? (Please bear in mind Aesthetics is not an option in Warlords.) Thanks.

The problem with trading for Construction is that most AIs don't want to give it away early (I don't know if that's because it unlocks units but I often see them not trade it until 1AD). And you do want it early to avoid Longbows in your first war.

Alphabet on the other hand will be readily traded by any AI that reaches it so you can get it for Construction. Currency will come later than usual, true, but you will conquer cities earlier and at a lower cost, and there are profits to that as well. You will get to Currency in time by building Research / running Scientists (AFTER you have enough units for your first war) and getting gold from conquering cities. Or you might even get the final part of it for a peace deal with your target when he only has one city left. So if you want Catapults early, go Writing - Maths - Masonry - Construction - Currency and then either Code of Laws or directly towards Engineering.

Generally, when doing early wars with siege you will always fall behind what you normally expect to achieve in tech rate. But you will accumulate a bigger and bigger army, and the window of opportunity for war with Medieval units (Catapults and then Trebs) is big (up until Riflemen). If you have 18+ cities by that time from your conquests and are not too far behind in tech you will win.
 
The problem with trading for Construction is that most AIs don't want to give it away early (I don't know if that's because it unlocks units but I often see them not trade it until 1AD). And you do want it early to avoid Longbows in your first war.

Alphabet on the other hand will be readily traded by any AI that reaches it so you can get it for Construction. Currency will come later than usual, true, but you will conquer cities earlier and at a lower cost, and there are profits to that as well. You will get to Currency in time by building Research / running Scientists (AFTER you have enough units for your first war) and getting gold from conquering cities. Or you might even get the final part of it for a peace deal with your target when he only has one city left. So if you want Catapults early, go Writing - Maths - Masonry - Construction - Currency and then either Code of Laws or directly towards Engineering.

Generally, when doing early wars with siege you will always fall behind what you normally expect to achieve in tech rate. But you will accumulate a bigger and bigger army, and the window of opportunity for war with Medieval units (Catapults and then Trebs) is big (up until Riflemen). If you have 18+ cities by that time from your conquests and are not too far behind in tech you will win.

Much obliged georgjorge, that's precisely the answer I was looking for :goodjob:. Watch out world, here I come!
 
There is a reason why cuirassiers are so popular on intermediate/higher levels and normal speed. There are at least three good things about waiting for them: you will have much more time to develop a tech lead, you usually have a decently set up empire that will not "crash" and faster units are obviously essential on normal speed. To put it simply, you do not have to play as good because there is more time to correct for non optimal play and mediocre starting position. There are also very nice synergies on the way to Lib/MT like getting the free artist from music, bulbing key techs, rushing/chopping the Taj for a golden age (although this sometimes conflicts with war preparation).
Early wars I found much harder already on Emperor, certainly on Imm, unless several positive factors come together (great start, good UU, weak/close neighbor).
Even if you can use a very powerful unit or your target does not have metal the economy crash can be hard before currency. And you are usually fighting at tech parity or only with a slight edge. The early/medieval wars also mess up your research towards Lib (or other important tech goals), can make it hard to get important wonders (Great Library).
This is also true for elephants and catapults because you will be warring in the late BCs when you want to get important techs. And they are slow. And some of the AI get longbows rather early whereas if you get Cuirs around 800-1000 AD they will usually face mostly longbows and some pikes and maybe knights but they are good until riflemen appear (muskets are not much better at city defense than longbows). pikes and elephants are somewhat tough for cuirs but they'll manage (and often the target will have neither). Another point is that the AI usually goes feudalism - guilds instead of education, so it will get knights around the time you already have cuirs.
So for me who is not that good at warfare, either very early rush under great circumstances or cuirassiers is a safer and easier option than HA or catapults or trebs.
 
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