Warriors of the Jade Hall - HOF Deity #1

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Moriarte, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Hello, Players!

    This is the first in (hopefully) series of hall of fame unofficial deity gauntlets, so, all of you wishing to take a test against horrible deity AI [:scan:] & your fellow fanatics are welcome to try. Standard HOF rules apply and you have time until next gauntlet (approx.: 15/12/2013) to complete the gauntlet. Officially, there is no time limit on any of the games as HOF serves as eternal data base (up until the end of next b'aktun) for civilization games, hence, you can improve your finish time at any time you like.

    We will be competing for the fastest time in domination victory, playing as:

    Spoiler :

    ... on a Pangaea map.

    Strategy and tactics discussions are encouraged here, or, you can fly under the radar and impress people with your finish time, leaving everyone guessing how what you did is even remotely possible.

    Settings:

    Expansion: Brave New World
    Victory Condition: Domination (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
    Difficulty: Deity
    Map Size: Standard
    Map Type: Pangaea
    Speed: Standard
    Leader: Sejong (the awesome)
    Opponents: Any
    Version: SV8
    Date: 3rd December 2013 to 15 December 2013

    The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

    Initially, Cromangus and I decided to compete under these settings, and, since we don't mind competition, feel free to participate.

    Results will be seen on this page, after the next database update arrives.

    Good luck!
     
  2. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    You might want to mention this on the other forum, since most people who participate in challenges look for them there. I imagine some of the usual suspects would be interested in this idea.
     
  3. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    So far I'm really liking Korea for Domination. New personal best for artillery: t149 with cash on hand for 6 upgrades!

    It would have been t145 but I forgot to stop building Oxford and I bulbed Military Science by accident. :facepalm:

    This is infinitely easier than that Highlands BS. :lol:
     
  4. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Guess highlands trained us well :D

    I am doing similar thing in my current game. t. 167 arties though. Overestimated UA potential a bit, as i went full tradition + full commerce. Got one cap so far, but, by the looks of it that game can be done sub 220. Sent my workers everywhere to prebuild all tiny bits of road i needed to 3 capitals.

    Lost world fair to Morocco by 150 hammers [pissed]. Still, bulbed two GW to finish last two in commerce by t. 170 or something. Doing rationalism now. If i would win the fair i could probably do half of rationalism with the overflow :lol:.

    Are you doing liberty?
     
  5. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    My progress so far:

    Spoiler :

    I didn't notice a huge impact from the science building boost, but the bonus beakers from academies and specialists seemed to help a lot.

    I went full liberty. I probably should have gone with mixed tradition/liberty, because I got no pillage healing out of the pyramids until t150. I stayed peaceful until artillery. However, I must admit it was immediately very useful as soon as I attacked. Pillage-gold has already made it worthwhile.

    I didn't have a great start. I only pulled off one worker steal, and although I had lots of copper and salt, (and the associated pantheon) Pacal converted my best faith city before I could found a religion, which significantly delayed my religion, leaving me with 5th religion and no happiness buildings. I settled for +1 happiness from shrines, but it ended up being moot because by t100 he'd converted 3 of my 4 cities to a religion which offered zero faith and zero happiness. :(

    Anyway, my growth sucked. I was severely happiness limited until I got circuses and coliseums up. And my 4th expo, which I took to get Cerro de Potosi, was all desert. The only food was from 2 desert salt mines. But those only give 1 food until worked, and 2 after. I had to send a food caravan to get that city going at all, and I think it was still at 5 population when I got universities. :p

    The decision to snag Cerro was worthwhile though IMHO. It earned me an extra 1000g by t150. There just wasn't a good 4th expo spot otherwise, so it was better than nothing.

    And yet, I think at turn 100 my cities were 9,8,6 and 5 pop. Which is really pitiful. But, otherwise things have gone really well for me:

    Even though my 4 cities only had 3 unique resources (copper, salt and cotton) I cornered the market on copper and salt, which eventually allowed me to trade lux for lux and restore my happiness. I was able to get 6 DoFs, so I've had tons of cash from my excess luxuries.

    I used the Liberty finisher to plant an academy (+2 beakers from Sejong) and I hard-built NC, finishing on t85. I went for engineering before civil service and hard-built the third caravan. I rush-bought the first two caravans, so I had tons of beakers from trade routes.

    I went for Education before Machinery. As a result, despite my pitiful growth, I got Education on T103. I was able to pull off 6 RAs by t114, and I rush-bought 3 universities on t103. (Saved up all my lux trades for a long time)

    The one nice thing about getting overrun by Pacal's religion was that it gave me Jesuit Education, and even though I only had 200 faith saved up by t110, I was able to buy my last university on faith. So I didn't have to build any of them.

    I entered the Renaissance through Gunpowder, and timed it so that I would get my 7th policy the next turn. I opened Rationalism and I used a GW to get Secularism by ~t120. So, by then I had 8 specialists each generating 7 bpt. I sat around 220-250bpt all the way to Dynamite. I accidentally bulbed Oxford the turn I started researching Military Science, so I started researching Dynamite around ~t139. That cost me 1000 beakers. If it were not HOF I probably would have reloaded that turn... I always get Oxford 1 turn away and keep it in reserve, and just got distracted this time. I like to have it one turn from completion because RA timing is hard to manage, and you might need Oxford at any moment. Anyway, my final RAs kicked in at 144, which would have finished Military Science and allowed me to bulb Dynamite on t145... Oh well. The scary thing is, despite the growth issues, despite goofing on Oxford, I still hit t149, which makes me think t140 Dynamite is possible. :crazyeye:

    At Dynamite I switched one specialist in each city from a University to a Market. (Still 4 bpt/specialist!) I put the other University specialist on a mine. As a result, my beakers dropped on t150 to about 195bpt.

    Caravans: When I hit Education I switched my caravans to food/CS quest trade routes. When I hit Dynamite I bought a workshop in my best production city and switched my caravans to production/CS quests.

    On t167, here's where I'm at:

    I'm 3 turns from Industrialization. My XBs don't have logistics because I didn't even have barbs to fight... completely peaceful game until t149. I'm going to use pillage-gold from Maria to upgrade them to Gatlings, which will form the backbone of my third army and attack Brazil. I bought an armory in my best production city, and pumped out 3 artillery, so that army will have 3 artillery, 1 cavalry and 1 rifleman in addition to 4 Gatlings. That should punch through to Rio quickly.

    I bought two more artillery to supplement my initial 6, so my other 2 armies will be 4 artillery, 1 cavalry, 1 gatling and 2 riflemen each.

    I'm building 3 more cavalry just in case... but basically I'm on the home stretch. I figure I'm about 20 turns from victory if I make an optimal push, so there's no time to build anything else. I gave up on World's Fair after 400 hammers, because it was 70% done. No way for me to keep up with whoever the production beast is on that, and I basically don't need social policies anymore. In fact, I ended up taking +1 gold from science buildings instead of opening Commerce after Secularism, because it resulted in +11 base gold instead of +3. When I get my free policy from WF, it'll come just in time for me to finish another policy, so I can open Commerce and get Landsknecht by ~t175. I'll buy a few of them to capture cities for extra gold, and hopefully that will be all the extra momentum I need. I'll put my two specialists from the Writer's Guild on mines then and forget about social policies. If I had been luckier with Cultural CS, I probably could have gotten Mercantilism before turning off the culture spigot, but alas. Also, I never built an artists guild or a musicians guild. I don't have the population to support them anyway. :p

    Marrakech had Taj Mahal, which was nice, and Palenque had Machu Picchu. (Score!)

    I've taken more cities than I wanted to... I took all 3 of Pacal's good cities, because I need them to continue my push. Gandhi is a long walk, and it would be that much slower if I had to go around Chichen Itza. By taking them, I also secured 4 more luxes to sell to the civs that are still my friends. Which aren't many.

    Gandhi just denounced me for taking so many cities. So he gets army #2 as soon as I build roads to him. Maria has GW and is close, and my DOF just expired, so she gets army #1 and #2 in the meantime. She has Notre Dame, so capturing her first is worth it. And, the way I see it, it's better to have my artillery fighting there while I build roads then it is to have them make the long trek up there while I build roads.

    After Maria falls I'll start on Byzantium, and Venice is right next to me, so he'll probably be next after Brazil.

    As you can see, this map is very favorable for fast Domination. There's a ton of ocean, so everyone is crammed close together, and everyone is pretty close to me despite getting a corner start. All the unexplored area is ocean/CS. Ideal setup for Domination. Lucky roll I daresay. :D

    If I time everything right, sub-t200 is within reach I think.

    My overall strategy was to take advantage of Korea's tech advantages and go peaceful until artillery. However, hwa-cha are so strong I might try to do a hwa-cha-augmented XB rush next time. That could possibly result in a pre-Dynamite victory.

    I dunno though. t140 artillery is pretty tempting. What is that, 650 AD? Haha.
    Spoiler :



     
  6. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Sucks that you lost the fair, but do you really need it? The sooner you finish, the less impact it has. I think if you're aiming for a sub-t200 finish, you probably only get full value out of your first 8-9 policies. And the hammers spent on WF could be spent on 3 artillery. Of course, you have to take what the map gives you, and if the map gives you lemons, it adds 20-40 turns, so WF is more relevant. Hmm.

    Just so you don't have to read my whole essay (sorry... too much coffee), yes I went full liberty. From there I went straight into Rationalism. I didn't save my GW for the WF. I used it to get secularism faster. I figured that you want to go all in on specialists with Sejong's UA. It can give as much as 20% extra beakers:

    For those who are curious, here's the math I used to come up with +20%:

    Spoiler :

    Writer's Guild gives 8 beakers that way. Each market gives 4. With the workshop I bought that comes to a total of 28 beakers base. With NC and 2 specialists in each university in 4 cities, the total beakers from specialists comes to:
    Capital: 8 (Guild) + 4 (Mkt) + 14 (Uni) + 4 (Wkshp) = 30 base. X 183% = 55 beakers.
    Expos (x3): 4 (Mkt) + 14 (Uni) = 18. X 133% = 24. X3 = 72.

    Total specialist beakers: 127.

    The total extra beakers from Sejong's UA, not counting the academy, comes to: 42.66. For an artillery rush averaging 240 beakers after universities, that's a total of +20% science from Sejong's UA. Quite significant!

    Another factor is the academy. It gives 10 beakers base, + 83% = 17.33. Sejong's contribution to that is only about 3 beakers, but nonetheless, that adds to the total from his UA. If you plant the next GS instead of bulbing, you get more bpt, but bulbing is still better IMHO for Domination. You get about 1500 beakers from bulbing, and you get faster Chemistry &Fertilizer, which helps growth and production. If you plant, he's going to spawn around t130... 200 pts required if you planted the GS from Liberty) Planting gives an extra 17.33bpt, which would be only about 345 by t150. I also think it's worth bulbing 3rd GS to get faster Rifling & Industrialization.

    The only problem with this strategy is that you tend to be just catching up to #1 in tech right when you hit Dynamite. So, in some cases, because of these extra beakers, you aren't the limiting factor in your research agreements, the AI is. IE not all those extra beakers go into your RAs. But I think a lot of them do.


    It may be that the Hwa-Cha rush is the way to go. I got them somewhere around t120. If I had been building catapults beforehand, and had done a CB rush to capture my first capital, I could have attacked my second target on t125 with 4 Hwa-Cha & 4 XBows, supported by Muskets. The Hwa-Cha lack the bonus vs cities, but they're still strength 26, and XBows are only 18. So, they chew through units pretty good, and can even take on cities. And you can upgrade a few of them to Cannons on t135. I'd probably leave a few as Hwa-Cha to take on units until I hit artillery. (Since cannons are only strength 20 against units)

    Even if you don't finish before artillery, I think this would result in a faster finish than starting the war at artillery.
     
  7. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Oh, one question for you, Moriarte: Since you went full commerce, you had the policy for +1 science from banks. Did you notice a tech boost from building them? It should apply to any building that gives science...
     
  8. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Nah, that policy gave +5 beakers. Useless.

    Forgot to mention i was just playing a casual game. Yeah, i didn't need the fair, indeed, also i didn't need tradition and beelining artilleries. All i needed was xbow rush. Just that it wasn't the way the game went, as i was recording and didnt have the luxury of re-rolls. Had a crappy desert start. Just finished it at t.242, so you have some room to beat me. :) I might play another one in few days, Korea is great!

    Should have finished way earlier but i encountered god - like performance from Morroccan berber cavaly (+50% in desert, +50% inside Kasbah's) and runaway Attila guarding a choke point city also took way too many turns to deal with.

    Now, let me make some coffee and enjoy your essay.
     
  9. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    So it didn't give the Sejong UA boost when you built them like it does for libraries? Rats. Maybe certain buildings are flagged as "Science buildings"... I was hoping it would apply to banks if you had that policy. :p

    OMG, that sounds nasty. +100%?? Ridiculous. Luckily for me, Morocco was am immediate neighbor, doomed to die before ever getting Berber Cavalry. ;)

    The next game I play, I'm actually going to measure the tech boost I get from completing a building. (IE check beakers remaining on a tech one turn before library completes, then check next turn, subtracting bpt from previous turn)
     
  10. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    I think it's strictly limited to library, GL, Oxford, NC, p.school and r.lab. Not sure about Hubble and PT. Never checked.
     
  11. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    I'm pretty sure Hubble and PT give the boost. I seem to recall that from doing a Korea Science OCC back in G&K. Oh well, it's probably an inconsequential boost, and you should have banks by the time you get that policy anyway. :p
     
  12. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Playing a game right now:

    Spoiler :


    The map is riddled with hills, yet everyone is so close.. Going to give Xbow + Hwacha idea a shot. The plan is: Theodora, Morocco, Brazil [great wall] + Venice, India, Maya, Haile. There is absolutely no way to kill Pacal second as he is behind that mountain range with only one tile of passage.

    Question is: should i detour to education (good producing cities) or should i go straight for Hwacha's after machinery? First option grants Hwacha's in 30 turns, second - in 20 turns. With first option i'll get cannons (and good melee) sooner.

    Whatcha think?
     
  13. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Man, you've got quite a trek to get to your nearest neighbors. Once you do, they're all close together, but that map smells like a slow start. And you've got CS in your way on both paths, so unless you keep them allied, you could lose your city connections and have to fight your way past them. Also, you've got zero opportunity for trade route beakers at the moment. Not exactly ideal...

    That said, I think getting both Physics AND Machinery early enough to make good use of the Hwacha requires going for Education before either one of them. Also, with Sejong's UA, the sooner you get universities up the better. I dunno.

    After I finish this game (which could be a while. I've got RL things to attend to), on my next attempt I'm going to try Construction->Philosophy->Physics->Education->Dynamite, and not worry about Machinery at all. Hwa-Cha rush FTW! :D
     
  14. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Yeah, i Allied both CS, and was on track to unlock Hwacha's on t. 109 but she had the upper hand. My entire army (7Xbows, 4 cats, 2 swords and a spear, btw) was blasted to pieces by a fleet of Dromons with heavy support from cataphracts. :deadhorse: No way i could make it through that small passage without losing 90% of my army. I swear this game keeps biting me from different angles every single time. :D

    Well, that would be very tricky. While they're good units, the need support from xbows, cause they still need to set up before shooting.
     
  15. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Ouch, lol, yeah, unfortunate geography when your opponent has a naval UU. ;)
     
  16. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Damn, I'm still pretty bad at troop movement, timing my attacks, and in general, planning ahead. I had the money to steal Gandhi's CS Allies and I forgot to. One of them was between me and Byzantium. As a result I had to fight my way past them, and it easily added 10 turns. :(

    I also sent overkill troops to Maria, and could have attacked Gandhi ten turns earlier. This could have been t185, if I'd played the final turns right.

    So, I STILL haven't gotten a sub-t200 victory yet. This one... exactly t200, just like my last one. :cry:

    Oh well. I learned a lot, as usual. :) And not a bad game overall though. My personal best on researching Dynamite: t149. (780 AD!)

    FYI my insane gpt is not due to inefficient use of funds. I got most of that from 30-turn peace deals. I usually ask for gpt when they offer cities. You can get 60+ gpt that way in a single peace deal, + all their cash, which is usually worth more to me than some crappy city.

    Spoiler :





    Also, YAY! My first HOF submission! :D
     
  17. Peets

    Peets Emperor Hall of Fame Staff

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    finally :p
     
  18. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Hehe, true true. But Highlands kicked my ass. One day I'll go back and give it another try. Maybe. ;)
     
  19. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    And yes, the SS doesn't lie. I did have one worker for every unit...

    The AI kept feeding me workers! I only built like 3 the whole game. :lol:
     
  20. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Inspiring! I too wouldn't mind a sub t.200 deity win, something that is eluding me since the patch (bar camel riders). Takes a lot of luck (and skill, of course) to achieve that with artillery. My flawless path is probably out there with promoting archers and catapults all the while teching like crazy to dynamite to reach it around t.160-170 to finish last two civs. Every time i tried pure xbow run, it ended with a grind. So, yeah. :D

    Yes, after a point of no return is passed there is no need in money, it tends to snowball fast during last few turns.
     

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