Warriors of the Jade Hall - HOF Deity #1

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Moriarte, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    The earliest artillery I've been able to achieve with a CB/XB rush has been t165 or so, but that was on Highlands, so I'm fairly certain I can do better. The limiting factor IMHO is trade route beakers. Going for early Machinery puts heavy reliance on that. You're probably not getting Universities until t120. In my experience, you don't get artillery until about 45 turns after you get Universities. (roughly)

    My failed attempts at winning with XBs ended with a grind as well, but since the Hwacha are so powerful against units, I'm thinking one can finish the game with Range Logistics Hwacha, Cannons and XB. Which could allow you to skip Universities if you could somehow keep trade route beakers all the way to Chemistry.

    I'm trying Honor right now, because the improved barracks build time and +50% XP will get me the all-important Range Logistics combo faster, in theory, and I believe the limiting factor on time-to-victory is the turn you get that combo. The steamroll doesn't really pick up... steam... until you have that. ;)

    Honor is a slower start than Liberty though, so in the end it may not be as efficient, but I can usually knock out the whole tree by t75, which is just in time to start getting g/kill and +50% XP against my first victim. We'll see though. I'm hoping to open Liberty on t95, get the free worker on t115, and capture the Pyramids. :p
     
  2. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Thoughts so far:
    1) Range Logistics Hwacha are incredibly powerful. Unquestionably better than XBs.
    2) You can't tech physics AND machinery in a reasonable timeframe. So, you'll be stuck with composites until like t125, because you need melee units to support Hwacha, either pikemen or swordsmen. Spearmen don't cut it. Swordsmen are on the tech path to physics so they're a better choice. Which means: build warriors instead and prioritize finding iron... And don't sell it!!
    3) You need to get catapults as soon as humanly possible so you can upgrade them in time, which means less archers and getting CBs later.
    4) The only way to tech all this fast enough is to play peaceful early or get lucky with Trade Routes.
    5) catapults need an escort because of their 1-range vision. Luckily Hwacha don't.
    6) not having the rush-built NC or academy from liberty really hurts... Translation: Honor sucks :p
    7) Knights are almost one-hit kills. :)

    To ensure I didn't lose my trade route beakers, I leveled up my catapults on a nearby CS. It's slow though. I think a better plan would be: accept an early (pre-t40 dof), set up tr to expire before t90, level up on a CS until t90, then attack with catapults and swordsmen on t90 and sell the first city, switching tr to that city.

    I'm still working on the timing, but you definitely need to take Mathematics before Construction, and you need an early barracks. In my current game I went bronze working first, built a barracks and rush-bought my first catapult, but I probably could have gone mathematics first and leveled that first catapult on barbs. Noteworthy: CBS are the same production hammers as catapults but 70 less gold to rush buy. WTF? :(

    For Honor: Once the gold/kill rolls in, it's worth it IMHO to rush rush-buy an armory and as many catapults as possible, to take advantage of the cheap Hwacha upgrade cost. I upgraded 6 to hwacha on t100... Only 390g total with Honor.
     
  3. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Hmm, I wonder... for Liberty, it might be worth hard-building the NC and using the liberty finisher to bulb Physics, rather than plant an academy. I'd have to do the math, but this probably results in t90 Hwacha instead of t100. A 26 ranged strength unit on t90... You might be able to finish the game without Chemistry or even Machinery... ;)
     
  4. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    are we doing the usual HoF stuff where we can pick sea level, other civs and the like? Would prolly stick to random leaders, but high sea level + 5billion years should make a smaller smoother map
     
  5. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Yeah, it's standard HOF. Any option that isn't in the forbidden list. I haven't messed with the map settings, but maybe I should. I don't want a map like the one above that Moriarte rolled. ;)

    I'm curious to see how you fare on this, joshua. Monarchy->Honor is your chosen path, usually, right?
     
  6. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    only for Mongolia and Arabia. The timing is perfect for them to hit the upgrade policy right as you hit chivalry, and Keshiks hold up til artillery.

    I usually do the turtle to artillery with other civs since c-bow rush's are pretty iffy now.

    Giving this one a shot, I usually hate playing Deity cause the barbs drive me nutso (can't explain it). I probably rage quite 15 of those Highlands maps - that HoF purely sucked. Just retired from a map where I was waaaaaay off I my own corner of the Pangaea. This is a nice change from the Assyria thing that is up - can't seem to get an SV below 220 :(
     
  7. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Barbs don't usually bother me, but *shiver* Highlands, yes that map sucked.

    I think the timing on Monarchy->cheap upgrades would work for a Hwacha rush, but I value the +50% XP more. All the money in the world won't do for a t100 rush what Range + Logistics will do. ;)

    Right now I'm trying pure honor, going right-side 2, finish left-side, finish right-side, since I don't need the cheap upgrades for hwacha until later, and it gets me the +50% XP right when my catapults start firing.

    Things I may also try:
    liberty free-settler->+50% XP->complete Liberty
    Monarchy->+50% XP->complete Honor
    Liberty opener->+50% XP->complete Honor->free worker (so I can build the pyramids, and still complete Honor in time for my t100 attack run)

    All of these get you the +50% XP in time to get Range Logistics Hwacha by t100, but it's the other details (economy, happiness, etc.) that affect the outcome.

    I may also give pure Liberty another go, because the closer allows you to bulb Physics. I'm just worried I won't be able to XP my hwacha fast enough. They level slower than CBs in my experience, due to the need to set up. A barracks helps... but the goal is 150 XP, and +15 is nice, but Honor effectively gives +50.
     
  8. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    What sort of build order are you using? How many units?
     
  9. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Work in progress :p
     
  10. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    A little note for those struggling: just try to finish the game before t.300, don't quit. You wll have to adjust your strategy quite a bit to finish @ t.260. It's a completely different game play when you aim for t.240, 220 or sub 200. Got to be gradual about these things if you don't want to lose interest. ;)

    BWS, i had 15 arties and about 20 cavalries during my last game, half of which i lost to Attila'a bomber spam during last few turns. If you time it all properly, though, you will probably want two armies of 6-8 arties and few cavalries/melee

    If you aim for earlier units you just have to start spamming them at some point and never stop.
     
  11. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Any thoughts on the next HOF Deity challenge? The current discussion of jungle starts on Strategy & Tips got me thinking that a Brazil challenge could be interesting. Maybe Continents for a change of pace? Culture Victory seems like an obvious choice, although Domination or Space could make for an interesting challenge.
     
  12. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Definitely true. You can get a lot farther than you might think even when things fall apart. I think you learn a lot from playing out a game that won't be a super-fast win.

    For example, I was going to quit when I realized I wasn't going to get Physics until t110... figured the game was going too slow, no point...

    But I've found that promoted Hwacha can still take cities easily at t150, and even though I don't have Chemistry yet, it doesn't matter. I'll be getting it soon, and when I do, half of my Hwacha will suddenly be range 3 city-destroying cannons. Cannons with range and logistics do more damage to cities than stock artillery. Hwacha do only 2 less damage to melee units than artillery. In other words, cannons + hwacha should last you up to t200... so even in a game where I'm looking at t200 artillery, I could still have a t200 finish time! And I never would have thought it was worth playing out such a bad start. But I learned a ton, and I'm excited about the next game. Because when I *do* get t90 hwacha... watch OUT. :D
     
  13. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    I hate jungle starts. At least Monte gets culture and fast movement early. Brazil doesn't get jack squat until the mid-game. :p
     
  14. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    pretty sure that a doing a simple cbow into xbow sub turn150 domination isnt challenging at all on pangea map with handpicked opponent AND the best out of like 5 starts ..
    not for me and not for other experienced players.

    So i dont see the point of your artillery discussion AT ALL

    Proly these HOF rules d even allow to throw in raging barbs to totaly up ai?
     
  15. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Good point. Why ever try experimenting? It's stupid to do anything but blindly follow in the tracks of others. Just assume there's only one good way to do things and be done with it. Good point indeed. :/

    Besides, the point of mine, and I think Moriarte's comment, was to encourage someone who isn't handily turning in t150 victories to play things out and learn something. Do you quit every game if you haven't won by t150? And do you realize that most players can't win pre-bombers, let alone pre-artillery? If you don't readily win by t150, you need to get practice at t200 timing. If you can't easily win at t200, you need to get practice at t250 timing. Because any game that doesn't go perfectly is going to stretch into the next era of war tech. Which by the way, is the vast majority of all players... so if you don't see the point, maybe it's because you've been playing xbow rush for so long you don't remember what it was like to need bombers... :p
     
  16. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Also, you're free to participate, and go for the fastest finish time. No one doubts you can pull off t150 on a cooked map. :)
     
  17. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Yes, your majesty.
     
  18. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Since you bring the topic out here is my proposal: Let Cromagnus cook the next challenge settings, then the update after that is on you, the next one by Josh and so on. How's that? Maybe, we can set the requirement for a guy proposing: he has to have at least one entry in previous deity hof challenges.

    Oh, and, Cromagnus, i think you won this one. I barely have time to play another game till 15th, so, my congratulations. :)

    EDIT: And yes, i'm all up for culture too. At some point.
     
  19. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    yeah - but thats exactly my point - if u want encourage some1 who MIGHT struggle, you MIGHT show him the most easy way and not make him try make something work whats hardly works.

    obviously deity domination isnt so easy if u make things harder for yourself with subobtimal strategies.
    I mean, I could proly make the hiawatas work and I could tech to arties fast enough to kill all before bombers -maybe you too - but can others?

    But every1 with some skill SHOULD be able and try a liberty cbow into xbow "rush".
    That should be step 1.
     
  20. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    I'll take a shot in the dark and say that it's not everyone's cup of tea. Some lads just don't like to re-roll (and load game), if they fail at specific moment in the game. Hence the idea of improving yourself gradually and learning things on your own skin, adapting to various conditions, rather than trying uber strategies and failing ten times in a row. Eventually they'll come to acknowledge that your ideas are superior, but they'll feel good about themselves if they discover that on their own, i think.

    And I see you overreacting at times. Artillery rush does work, and it's actually easier to implement (by someone less experienced) than an xbow rush.
     

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