Warriors of the Jade Hall - HOF Deity #1

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Moriarte, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    I do sorta see your point, tommy... for someone who isn't used to CB rush, I wouldn't recommend trying a Hwacha rush. My comments weren't intended to encourage someone to try that first. But I had already won with Korea using a tried and true technique and I wanted to challenge myself to try something new. So. It's more me just thinking aloud as I try it myself. Learning as I go, reporting back my findings. For me, it does work, and I really find it fun to take cities with promoted Hwacha. It's like a knife through butter. :D

    I might also see if a coastal start makes it worthwhile to build turtle ships. A few of those could speed up my finish time. I don't know. I'm enjoying finding out.

    Other notes: the tech boost from finishing a library in the capital seems to be about 45 beakers. NC about 150. It seems to really vary. I'm wondering if it actually is based on your current tech output. In which case it would make sense to get TR up first and finish your capital's library last. The NC boost shaved about 8 turns off metalworking for me. With liberty bulbed scientist you can in fact get t90 Hwacha. Which can take cities even unpromoted. So Liberty still > Honor even for Hwacha rush, maybe. I haven't decided whether it's better to start taking cities on t90 with unpromoted siege or t110 with promoted siege.... After I wrap up my current Honor game I'll try another liberty run.
     
  2. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Ok, just a few notes on Hwach'a: I tried again with liberty. Having a pretty successful run, got hwach'a on T100. I could have had them on t92 by bulbing Physics, but ultimately I decided that it wasn't worth the tradeoff. ~400 beakers on t90 vs 15/turn from planting the academy... You save 8 turns off Physics, but by turn 117 you've broken even, and more importantly, it would add like 15 turns to getting Cannons.

    Also, there really isn't any point in starting the steamroll much earlier than t100, IMHO. You just end up capturing cities that are a drain on your happiness/economy, with no wonders/universities/etc. I think there's a critical mass cities have to get to before they're worth taking. And I need time to get my happiness buildings up. So, that's the route I'm taking. Although a part of me thinks it's worth attacking with hwach'a on t90 and running with negative happiness all the way to the end, but they capture cities so quickly you'd be at -20/-30 happiness way too soon. That's really my biggest struggle with fast domination... managing happiness. Maybe I just need to embrace negative happiness... I sell cities when I can, but that creates other problems.

    Liberty makes it all easier I must say. Pillage-money buys a lot of circuses. The only problem with Liberty is the slower promotion... none of my Hwach'a have range yet on t100. I just hope they have it by the time it matters. :p

    So far, what I love about Hwach'a rush vs CB/XB rush is one simple fact: Enemy units are what makes city capture difficult, not city strength. Hwach'a just OWN units... it's almost broken how effective a 26-strength range unit is on t100. It's a little tricker since you can't step into range and fire... but one horseman and a worker solves that problem. I lure units with worker bait, and then recapture the worker every turn with the horseman after the hwach'a nuke it, moving the horseman back out of range. Once the units are gone, the city is easy.

    Seriously, and this is no joke, the biggest problem with Hwach'a is that they do *SO MUCH* damage. I can't keep 6 of them firing every turn. The units are all gone and the city is at zero health almost immediately. It's hard to promote them to range/logistics when you take a city in two turns. My solution to that problem this time was to attack two cities at once, 3 hwach'a per city. This is the first time I've tried that, but so far so good. It's trickier to manage, because I need twice the number of meatshields, but I think it's the key, because fast XP to the Range promotion is what I need to keep the momentum rolling. I'm thinking that Logistics just isn't as effective a first promotion with Hwach'a because they often need to set up on the first turn they attack anyway. (If they moved twice to get into range)

    This is looking like it will be a successful run, so hopefully I'll have some screens to post sometime this week.
     
  3. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    T165 update:

    Spoiler :

    I'm spoilering this just so my posts don't spam the thread. So, my Liberty attempt isn't going as well as I'd hoped. As I feared, slow promotion resulted in capturing my first two capitals (5 cities total) without any of my Hwach'a reaching the Range promotion. Liberty got me Physics probably 10-15 turns faster than I could have done with Honor, and pillage-gold kept me afloat financially until I captured Machu Picchu and got the 50% road maintenance discount. I did eventually take Honor because no one had grabbed Statue of Zeus, so I built that on like t120. :lol:

    I didn't continue through Honor because I would have gotten the +50% XP on turn 160 or so, so it wouldn't have been worth it, nor would the other side.

    I've got 5 of 8 capitals, with Maria, Ahmad and Venice left.

    As you can see from the photo, I'm probably not going to be able to capture Marrakech with Cannons/Hwacha/Cavs for two reasons:

    1) Because of terrain (Casablanca is protected by mountains and there's a lot of hills between me and Marrakech even if I manage to go around)
    2) Marrakech is 78 strength, and defended by Berber Cavalry. Mahmoud decided to go down the war tech route in this game, so he's got cannons as well.

    If he wasn't between me and Venice, I could easily take Venice.

    Also, I realized early on that Maria was going to be very difficult to reach. There's a huge mountain range with a narrow pass between me and her, and she's got a big navy. I've got 6 turtle ships with lvl 2 promotions ready, and I'm hoping I can surprise attack her and capture her coastal capital before she can react. If that fails, this game is going to be a slog.

    Because I went all in on Hwach'a, I didn't bother to build universities, and that's the only reason I don't already have artillery. I also ignored about 5 RA opportunities, hoping to finish the game by now. I'd have artillery and be wiping the floor with Ahmad otherwise. But that's the gamble you take when you go all-in on unit production. :p

    Anyway, I should have artillery by t180, and I have a bunch of cannons and hwach'a ready to promote. I'm going to send half of them across the ocean to attack Venice by sea, which will save trying to fight my way through Ahmad first. Should save a few turns at least. If my surprise attack on Maria doesn't succeed, I'll need a third army for her. So, this game is likely going to go past t200. But, it's not because hwach'a rush can't work... it's because I failed to get them promoted fast enough. Partly that was because Pacal screwed me. He surprise attacked Rio while I had it at zero health and was farming XP. When Pacal captured Rio I couldn't counter-attack because we had a DoF, I was getting 25bpt from TR with him, and my flank was extremely exposed to the Maya at that point. He also had the #1 military... so I went about 20 turns without shooting as a result, until I was ready to attack him.

    I sometimes have the exact same problem with CB rush, (having to stop shooting for many turns)... the difference is, you can start promoting archers on t20, not t60... Which is why I think Honor is the key for a Hwach'a rush. Had I gotten range and logistics by t120, this game would be over by now. I took 4 capitals with Hwach'a *without Range or Logistics*...

    I really don't understand how people could ever consistently, on any given map, start shooting at t50 and keep shooting until it's game over. It feels to me like even CB rush is heavily dependent on sheer luck. So many times I start the game without an easy victim neighbor to XP on. Is it just restart at t55 if things don't go well, or is there some trick I'm missing that allows CB rush to work on every start?

    Anyway, my conclusion for Hwach'a rush is the same for CB rush. If, due to circumstances, you can't get your units promoted to Lvl 4 in time (t90 for CB rush, t120 for Hwach'a rush) then you should go to plan B and tech to artillery after your first few captures. That way you don't lose your friendships/RA, and don't over-commit to a rush that's destined to lose momentum. At least that's my opinion. Good learning experience anyhow.

    I *may* try one more time with Honor, to see if I can pull off the crazy fast steamroll by getting lvl 5 Hwacha by t110, but I'm kind of burnt out on Korea now, and I'll probably be done after finishing this game, especially if it turns into a t200+ crawl to the finish line.

    Spoiler :



     
  4. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Sounds good to me. I guess I'd better get playing then!
     
  5. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    I don't know how experienced you are, but if you don't have a successful Deity CB rush under your belt yet, I recommend just focusing on getting a win at all, and not worry about getting a record finish. I mean, not to discourage you from trying for a t150 win of course, but Sejong is much more suited to artillery/cavalry or bombers/landships than CB rush, because his UA really only helps you if you focus on science.

    He really is a great candidate for artillery rush though. :D
     
  6. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Heh, I don't have a Deity win at all yet. Not looking to be competitive yet, still learning the basics. I might give the current G-Minor another attempt before tackling this. I feel like I could have done much better than my first run at that, but I'm not sure whether I want to go to the trouble of starting over.

    When you skip the CB rush, how do you approach leveling up? Do you still start an early war and use it to level up units for the real attack, or do you start fresh with artillery when you get them?
     
  7. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    If I'm going to skip the CB rush, I totally ignore military beyond a token few units until I've gotten my infrastructure and growth booming. You still want about 4 archers though, minimum, even if you're on a cooked map with all peacemongering AIs.

    Those units are for CS barb camp quests and to defend against barbarian incursion. It really helps if you get a culture or growth CS early, and barb camps are the easiest way.

    Also, it makes a huge, huge difference if you can pull off worker steals early, and the earliest worker steals are from Civs, not CS, so technically I don't play entirely peacefully. I DoW someone and steal at least 2 workers. Preferably a Civ, to start getting them on t10, but if I can't get one by t20 I'll opportunistically attack the first worker that I can get home quickly and safely.

    You can generally get away with stealing one from an AI and one from a CS, but it'll hurt your rep more. Worker-stealing is an art that requires you understand line-of-sight. Once you've got that down you can steal 3, 4 or even more if you like.

    I try to get those worker steals in early if I attack a civ though, because early trade routes are key on Deity. I want to have trade route beakers as soon as humanly possible, so I won't Dow someone for a worker after turn 25 or so. At that point I think you're better targeting a CS.
     
  8. Blicero

    Blicero Warlord

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    Just so you know, I gave this little challenge a try. Had a nice little game going. Venice was next to me, so was my first target. I took him out around T75-ish. Of course since he only had one city (he had two GMs for about 10 turns and didn't use them, even on a CS that was NEXT to him :crazyeye: ), when I took him out I got the civ-elimination penalty. Around t105 the entire world declared war on me. It's not like I couldn't handle it, but my money situation was dire and I just turned it off. All I did was take one city!

    This is ridiculous. And I am feeling that tired-of-playing-this-game feeling for the first time. I like the features that came with BNW, but GNK was a much better game. It was challenging and war was legal. The current warmonger penalties are stupid and unnecessary, and I am guessing they basically turn off most of the player community.

    :looks funny at Firaxis and scratches head:
     
  9. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Yeah, you really can't take someone's only city at t75 anymore... you shouldn't take any cities at all prior to t90, preferably t110, if you want anyone to remain friends with you. With Korea though, I feel like you're better off not starting the war until artillery anyway. You can get artillery SO fast with Korea. :D

    Not to get into a prolonged discussion of a topic that I've talked about too much as it is, but I really feel like it's all about the change in economics. The removal of river tile gold, the introduction of trade routes... basically your entire economy is from trade nowadays. So being a warmonger is a lot harder now because you lose all that trade. Even simple things like markets are less effective unless you have trade routes.

    So, yeah, and then on top of that they increased the warmonger penalty. :p
     
  10. Peets

    Peets Emperor Hall of Fame Staff

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    You can still play G&K for the HoF :)
     
  11. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    @Moriarte: Ok. I'll come up with the next one. Have a few ideas. Probably post it tomorrow.
     
  12. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Hey, I just noticed in the update that Hexacore snuck in a t198 to win this challenge. Grats!
     
  13. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Congratulations, Hexacore! :)
     
  14. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    I didn't have time to finish this challenge before the update, but I've been having fun trying, so I'll probably submit a game eventually. Also, I need the practice before moving onto Cromagnus's challenge!

    This is actually the first time that I've managed to capture a Deity capital at all. In one attempt, I managed to snipe Dido's capital (with archers and a scout!) while Theodora was attacking her, and in my last attempt I took Ahmad's capital on my own with swordsmen and composite bows. Unfortunately, my economic situation was untenable in the first game, and in the second I got ganged up on by Theodora, Genghis, and Pedro of all people. Still trying to figure out how to juggle all the things while going on the warpath.

    I'm currently using a mix of hand-picked opponents including three of the friendliest leaders in the game (Ahmad, Pedro, Theodora), two of the most aggressive (Genghis, Shaka), and two who are a mix of both (Bismarck, Catherine). I'm hoping that will give me a solid diplomatic base and an opportunity to liberate some city-states, but so far it hasn't worked out as well as I'd hoped. I think I need to keep an early war running for worker recruiting and unit training, but wait to actually capture cities until I have good diplomatic relations established with the other leaders.
     
  15. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    BWS, what do you spend your money on then, if I may ask? Money is tight, yes, but if you're only rush-buying 1-2 caravans, maybe a library in your 4th city and a few universities, you should be ok... are you perhaps buying lots of tiles?

    Also, just as a side note, don't forget you actually have to build (not buy) libraries/universities in the capital to get the tech bonus.

    Also, if you settle your capital on a hill mining lux you get +2gpt, which really adds up. Plus it generally allows you to sell the lux sooner. (~t25 or less if you go for mining right after pottery)

    It's 3gpt if you settle on gems. You probably knew this, but this really does boost gold a lot. Same thing applies to your expos.
     
  16. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    BWS, perhaps this particular path you describe is a tad aggressive for you? There is a tradition + commerce + some in rationalism path, where you can enjoy the early spoils of science and gold from trade, caravans and RA's. Get to artillery fast and then you're untoachable. Besides, there is always a choice to mix it up, maybe starting to train your CB's on some unlucky neighbor, then get to XB's and start capturing. That way you won't suffer diplomatic repercussions right off the bat, if that's a part of your problem.

    No need to go straight liberty and start fighting from turn 30 in order to finish around t.200, yet, sometimes it's an option.
     
  17. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    If you go tradition, I recommend building 3 settlers as soon as you hit 4 population unless you have really great food and get to 5pop before turn 30. Although I'm sure there are those who would disagree with that... but without liberty, you have to start working on settlers a little earlier to get them out on time.

    Also, (and this depends on timing) if you get your third SP right when you start building settlers, you have two interesting options:

    1) If you don't have excess food, you can go for Landed Elite, which will actually boost your settler production and boost growth if there's any delay before your next SP after you finish building settlers... there shouldn't be though.. you'll generally be building settlers for at least 20 turns... which means you'll get the next policy before you finish.

    2) Or, go for Monarchy first, which will boost money/happiness, allowing you to potentially sell an additional lux without going negative. You're building settlers, so you're not actually losing growth. Surplus food gives hammers at the following rate: +1food=+1hammer,+2food=+2hammer,+4food=+3hammer. After that it's generally not worth it. (I think the next one is at +8food)

    I generally prefer Landed Elite because #2 only really works if you start building settlers before you get your third policy.... otherwise you're losing growth potential. But if you have excess food even with max hammers, and the timing is right, you'll get more gold that way. Matter of debate though. ;)
     
  18. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    I'm not a big fan of Bismarck. He has a very high tendency to march an army over EARLY. So, him + Genghis + Shaka = trouble IMHO. One warmonger is fine, because if they attack you, they just become your first target. But 3? I think that's asking for it.

    Also, if you're not going for CB rush, having someone like Shaka next to you sucks. He WILL attack, and if you're not going for CB rush, it'll derail your optimal path to artillery. So, since you're cooking the settings, for artillery rush I prefer 7 peacemongers... guaranteed early tech trade routes, lots of trading partners. I can see 1 warmonger and just hope he doesn't start next to you, or pay him to attack someone else when he goes after you... but he won't have good beakers, and he won't be as inclined to make friends... so it's a gamble.
     
  19. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Surprisingly, Shaka was the tech leader in my current game even though he has some of the lowest science personality ratings in the game! I agree though, perhaps I'd be better off with fewer warmongers.

    Part of my leader strategy was also to downplay religious AIs to give myself a better chance of getting a decent pantheon. Although I had another big surprise in my last game: I totally missed out on a pantheon, but I got the third religion anyway because of Uluru. Turns out that founding a religion gives you a pantheon anyway; I took the natural wonder bonus.

    A less pleasant surprise was learning that if you steal land with a general and then liberate a city, it gets it's first ring back. So my second general ended up being mostly wasted.
     
  20. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Yeah, I learned that the hard way. Stole land to get the marble next to a city, then later capped the city, then sold it... lost the tile next to the city that had the marble... :p
     

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