Warriors of the Jade Hall - HOF Deity #1

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Moriarte, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Religious guys love piety, and that means less cities to deal with in conquest and guaranteed faith buildings in your cities, since they spread their faith a lot, all you have to do is set up mediocre faith production, and then you can snowball. Science guys are dangerous, cause they can outtech you and military guys are, well .. who wants to deal with impi spam. Attila is a good compromise here. Both his rams and his archers are pretty useless AND he is easy to bribe.
     
  2. BWS

    BWS Big Bradd Wolfe

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    Ah good point about religious civs. I was thinking that a good choice for an aggressive AI is one with a high city state attack value, so you can liberate them for practice and to mitigate warmonger penalties. Genghis is good for that, but his keshiks might be a problem.
     
  3. Blicero

    Blicero Warlord

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    So I managed to get around to giving this another go. The plan was to only start waging war once I hit artillery. I know it won't give me the fastest finish time but I was focused how fast I could hit artillery. I ended up with a T269 victory, which is a personal best for me.

    I hit artillery on T167, which matches my personal best on that. Can't figure out how to get it done quicker AND have at least four cannons on the front lines ready for promotion on the turn. I signed one RA with the tech leader and bulbed two GS (planted the first one). I was aiming for T150 artillery as that is going to be such a huge difference vs the AI. It would be the difference between cities of your first two opponents having defense of 30-40 and 55-60+. I just don't know how it can be done.

    Guess I can move on and try it again on the Persia challenge.
     
  4. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Well, you're specifically not allowed to use artillery in the Persia Challenge. ;)

    But it may still turn out to be useful for you to try it. The Persia challenge requires very efficient early play. You have to balance growth, tech, happiness, production, etc., and get all of the following out fast: settlers, workers, tile improvements, libraries, NC and units. If you can get NC out by T77 and have 4 catapults ready to upgrade along with sufficient funds on t85 when you complete Liberty, bulb Physics, and get your first natural Golden Age all at the same time... well, after that, I guarantee you will find hitting artillery by t150 easy. ;)

    It's challenging, but the nice thing is, you know for sure by t90 whether you've hit all your goals or not. The time investment for each learning experience is a lot less than when aiming for t150 artillery. I can run through a map to t90 in a couple of hours tops.

    I will say that if you're having trouble hitting t150 artillery with Sejong, you need to focus on 3 key goals IMHO. Stage 1 is fast caravans, libraries and NC. Stage 2 is fast universities. Stage 3 is fast artillery, meaning RAs, well-prepped Oxford, and having cash + cannons.

    How do you accomplish each stage? Well, stage 1 is about getting workers and settlers up ASAP, because workers = improvements = cash, and you can't start building a library until your city is placed... :p

    Each city needs to have growth potential, production, happiness and things to sell, and needs to be placed with forethought towards getting incoming tech beakers from caravans. Also, you can greatly speed up stage 1 by rush-buying the last library, but IMHO it's much better to buy a caravan instead and focus on getting that last settler out faster. You pretty much have to steal workers or recapture them from barbarians to get workers up fast enough. This is such a big part of finish time that I highly recommend practicing worker steals until you can consistently get 2 by turn 30 or so. It's important to get them early so you can make peace, get DoF and sell luxes. You don't need more than 2 worker steals but 4 is nice, and you can always DoW a CS for it if you can't manage to get them from a city. With a well-placed unit, you can just keep sniping workers every 5-10 turns.

    I strongly believe early worker steals would literally be the difference between t165 artillery and t150 artillery. But, there's more to it. Going for pyramids after your last settler is IMHO a huge part of getting all those improvements up. With Pyramids, you only need 6 workers. Without, you need 9. IMHO. Also, if you go Liberty, the biggest problem of course is border expansion rate. Tradition will get you a lot of tiles you'd otherwise have to rush-buy. That is why city placement is *SO IMPORTANT*. Perfect placement = not having to buy tiles = cash for a caravan = +20-30% tech early, and the caravan pays for itself.

    Stage 2 is all about cash and growth, and (for Sejong) good production in the capital. You want to hard-build the capital's university for his UA, so you need good production. Get Education by t100. How? Well the capital library and NC both give a tech boost. Liberty finisher academy gives over 1200 beakers by t150, so you want to *IMHO* hard-build NC. You also need enough cash to rush-buy universities if possible *AND* get 5-6 RAs. Prioritize RAs over rush-buying because they need to *finish* by t150 so you can attack. So you need all your RAs up by t120 at the latest. All this cash comes from, again, workers, selling luxes. Which means you need multiple copies. It may sound crazy to have 3000g for rush-buying universities and RAs but it's totally doable. (you don't need all of it on t100)

    If you can't afford RAs AND unis, then you need *good production in every city* for building them. If you're REALLY floating in money, buy an observatory. But if you have this much money after you've hit all your goals, jeez. :p

    For Stage 3, it's *really* important to bulb Oxford the turn you complete Military Science. How to manage that when your RAs all finish at different times with unpredictable beakers? Well, get Oxford one turn from completion and you at worst waste one turn on Dynamite, even if your last RA completely finishes Military science. (I generally tech something else for that turn while I finish oxford)

    Honestly, if you do ALL of this, you'll have artillery by t140. Which means you'd need your RAs up by t110. So, point being, t150 actually allows some slack. If you're doing 100 other things right. ;)

    EDIT: Forgot to mention that the key to all of this is scouting. Better scouting = better city placement, early funds from meeting CS, earlier friendships, more ruins, worker steals, barb camp quests, CS allies... I would say whenever I fail to achieve my goals, it's usually because of bad scouting.
     
  5. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    I really dont understand this NC addiction. NC is just 100% unneeded if u dont want tech into indu era.
    At least in my experience ....
     
  6. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    If you're not going for universities, the boost from NC is noticeable IMHO. If you have room in your production queue for it, I think it's worth it. But there's the rub. For a rush starting with medieval units, I think it pays for itself by the time you actually tech something like Chivalry. But for a rush starting with classical units, I'm on the fence, because the point when you're building NC is when you should really be building those classical units. I think it really depends on how efficient you are. If the game goes past t140 I usually wish I'd built NC. If you can win before then, late muskets and such are not a problem.

    For Sejong especially... NC is like a 5-turn tech boost just from building it. It almost covers the cost of Philosophy right then.

    If you're talking about the Persia challenge in particular, I'm on the fence. I feel like building NC prevents me from attacking two civs at once. It's the difference between 3 catapults and 6. But, it's the difference between t120 muskets and t130 muskets... I think. Maybe I'm overestimating its value. I'm actually specifically experimenting with not building NC at all for that game. I've only tried once and my rush failed for unrelated reasons. What I'm not sure about is whether I should build a barracks instead, or units... for now I'm building units, and rush-buying barracks with spoils of war. That seems to work pretty well. But that's a subject for another thread.
     
  7. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    i really think u shoudl be able to finish this with tribok tech and a spam of its uu as meat shields
     
  8. Blicero

    Blicero Warlord

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    Thanks Cromagnus for the write-up and the tips. So, I rolled another map for this one and managed to achieve arty by T151 :dance: I think the main thing missing from the previous attempt was the beaker caravans and careful city placement to 1) enable those caravans and 2) maximise luxes. Two workers stolen by T20, NC by on T72, Education T102. On SPs I was wondering if it was worth it getting Acoustics (not on the path the Artillery) in order to allow the ratio opener with the 7th SP. I did not do that this game. I think the 11 turns you need for it are better spent elsewhere.

    I finished the game on T261 which wasn't a huge improvement from the previous attempt, but I blame this on some poor war management and a HUGE pangea continent where maybe half the land area was unsettled by the time of victory. I also pretty much neglected science after artillery, which meant the AI caught up with me and both al-Mansur and Humuhumu-nukunuku had massive armies of stubborn units to deal with. I think I'll try again and replace al-Mansur with Haile Selassie. Those berber cavs in friendly territory are just not cool man.

    Think I'll pass on the Persia challenge for now as I'm on a mission here...
     
  9. Blicero

    Blicero Warlord

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    I know this challenge is out of date, but I've been pecking away at it. I finally got what must be a close to perfect map. Tons of luxes. Only difficulty is the size of the pangea and the placement of one particular civ's capital. Some milestones:

    NC T72 (4 cities)
    Edu T94 (5 cities, purchased two universities on the turn)
    Artillery T144 :yay:
    DV: T231

    I had a perfect war mongering streak as Atilla took three capitals before I ever waged war, so I liberated the two closest ones which kept the map loving me right up until it was too late for them to do anything about it.

    Will move on now to something else. But attach the map if anyone wants to give it a go.

    View attachment AutoSave_Initial_0000 BC-4000.Civ5Save
     
  10. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Nice, grats man!
     
  11. Blicero

    Blicero Warlord

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    Thanks Cromagnus! I finally achieved my goal thanks to some of your advice. I think the critical items that made the difference are:

    - 2x 3-beaker caravans as early as possible
    - 5 cities
    - I used the 3rd caravan for a foodie back to the capital (probably around T110) to get it to pop 16 by T144
    - 3x RAs with the top 3 tech leaders

    I also replaced Kamehameha with Askia. I find Askia pretty weak and, like Attila, good for bumping noggins and ruffling feathers.
     
  12. Peets

    Peets Emperor Hall of Fame Staff

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    Anyone is allowed to try it but it can't be submitted to the HoF, this will be rejected due to the rules. :)
     

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