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Was D-Day necessary ?

Discussion in 'World History' started by marshal zhukov, Jul 20, 2002.

  1. marshal zhukov

    marshal zhukov good economist wannabe

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    After reading things about it I came to the conclusion that the D-Day was not necessary, meaning that the Russians could for sure take care of the Germans by themselfs, just like they had been doing for the last 3 years.

    But I don't argue about the necessity of the English air campaing over Germany, that I believe was necessary.

    These things about the D-Day are said because of the numbers of the Eastern Front.

    In the summer ofensive of 44, the Soviets had 1.200.000 men to attack the Germans, D-Day landed 150.000 men in a beach.

    From January of 44 to November of the same year the Germans lost 1.100.000 men in the eastern front.

    In the winter of 45 the Soviets attacked the germans again in a new offensive, and this time they had 2.200.000 men, 6.400 tanks and 46.000 artillery pieces. And they were about 400 Km away from Berlin.

    Sure that it would have taken longer to win the war but the end result would have been the same. D-Day was unnecessary based on those numbers
    Any opinions on that? Those numbers were taken from a ' Renes ' book, does anybody read them ?
     
  2. Ohwell

    Ohwell Deity

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    It was neccesary to keep the Soviets from dominating Europe. Had the D-Day invasion not tooken place, The USSR surely would have controlled all of Germany, and possibly France. The US and UK didn't want to have to attack the Soviets to re-establish crushed countries, so they took it upon themselves to take it before they did.
     
  3. dannyevilcat

    dannyevilcat DESTROYER OF FURNITURE

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    Ohwell says it all truly. And not just preventing Soviet domination of Europe, but can you imagine the political situation if the Soviets did all the "liberating"? Why, it would make the western world look impotent.
     
  4. Alcibiaties of Athenae

    Alcibiaties of Athenae Imperator

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    Your reasoning is faulty Marshal, without a second front the Nazis could have redeployed mobile forces to the east to stop the Russians.

    According to their own records, the Soviets had reached the end of their reserve pool in march of 1945, from that point they could no longer count on massive replacements.
    Without the western army of over 3 million strong by january of 45 breathing down Germany's western border, the Nazis would have had the time and resources to hold the Oder line while bringing into service Jet Aircraft and improved armor designs.

    To say the west did nothing is both foolish and simplistic.
     
  5. newfangle

    newfangle hates you.

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    Its worth noting that at the conclusion of the war, the Soviets only had 5% of their population aged 18-25.
     
  6. dannyevilcat

    dannyevilcat DESTROYER OF FURNITURE

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    But A of A, by march 1945 the Soviets it was no more neccessary for those massive replacements than any other country. They had good, hardened soldiers with competent leadership, and decent equipment, and they had already broken Nazi Germany's back. The Nazis could only try to delay the Russian advance.

    And whether it was due to Allied bombing, Germany had huge fuel shortages which, as was the case, kept the thousands of Me-262's which they'd built grounded most of the time.
     
  7. Alcibiaties of Athenae

    Alcibiaties of Athenae Imperator

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    Your forgetting that the allied armies caused more then 1,000,000 casualties by 1945 from the D-day landing foward, including the complete destruction of three SS panzer Corps.

    Those forces were not static defense formations, but active mobile forces.
    A quick look at Heinrici's defensive fight along the Oder shows that if he had even half of those mobile forces, he could have stopped the Soviet offensive against Berlin cold.
    These defenses were held by Volkstrum and untrained forces, yet caused enormous losses to Russia, imagine the damage had they been trained forces with mobile reserves.
    Without the western front, this is what would have been faced.
    The SS could still fight, as shown at lake Balaton in Hungary, and they would not be skelton forces, but fully equiped, as there was no Normandy, Market Garden, nor Battle of the bulge to destroy them in this scenario.

    It is a common mistake made by laymen to dismiss the western allies, as they used inferior armor to both Germany and Russia, but they MORE then compansated for it by FAR superior airpower and artillery, and BOTH of those arms are far more decicive then mere tanks.
     
  8. dannyevilcat

    dannyevilcat DESTROYER OF FURNITURE

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    I'm not saying the Allies were a third wheel, not by a long shot. So I only argue how decisive they were to final victory, not the speed with which they helped do it.

    An interesting side story I found in the book D-Day, by Ambrose. When the Allies stormed Normandy, they captured a Korean soldier in a German uniform along the Atlantic Wall. How did this come to pass? Well, the Korean was a part of the Japanese army who fought Soviet forces in Mongolia, was captured and recycled into the Red Army against the Germans when they invaded, was again captured and used by the Germans.
    This is an example of how far down the barrel the Germans were reaching to fill undersized divisions. In 1944, the bulk of the German army was no longer it's former mobile self, especially in the west. And considering the Ardennes Offensive pretty much spent what quality reserves the Germans had shows that if Russia had it tough in bringing reserves to the fight, the Germans had it impossible, unless 60 year olds and adolescents count.

    But it's important to add that I don't intend to demean Allied contributions to the war. Heck, I still get all teary-eyed whenever I see veterans recount their experiences, and I know that their fight was still a tough and costly one.
     
  9. EdwardTking

    EdwardTking Deity

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    Two points:

    (1)

    Although the Russians had a much larger population than Germany; it must be remembered that the Germans were
    consistently able to inflict a much higher casualty ratio.

    Estimates vary around 2 Russians captured or killed for every German; throughout the war.

    Initially this was because the Germans were better equipped; later on it was because the Germans were fighting defensively.

    According to my understanding it was the Russians that ran out of fit men first and had to draft women.

    (2)

    There were a lot of allied troops in Italy who helped too.
     
  10. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

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    I used to be one of those folks who just said "yeah, it was all a PR show, a political move," etc. But in retrospect, I've come to think it was necessary. To say it was decisive...? Well, sort of; Nazi Germany fell because it got chopped up from too many sides with too much firepower; I think it was decisive in combination with equally decisive Russian moves, but not decisive in its own right.

    R.III
     
  11. Crimson Sunrise

    Crimson Sunrise Slaying tanks on turn 104

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    Have you played Avalon Hill's Diplomacy? The hardest country to use is Germany, since they have to split their forces east and west. That's why D-Day was crucial: It opened a second front which stretched German resources beyond the breaking point.
     
  12. marshal zhukov

    marshal zhukov good economist wannabe

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    I am not saying that the allies did not help , I am saying that they were not needed.
    The D-Day sure made a huge difference but was it necessary?

    NO, because since July of 43 the Germans hadn't been able to stop the Russians.
    Interesting to mention is that the last attack the Germans made was in 43 ( Battle of the Kursk ).Since 43 the germans did nothing but to defend themselves from a ever growing Soviet Army.

    And since Kursk, all panzer divisions were nothing but a shadow of their former selves.
    The Volkostrum caused so much damage to the russians because of competion inside of the Soviet army. Konev and Zhukov were competing for Berlin.

    Sure that the war wouldn't had ended in May but in August, probably
     
  13. joespaniel

    joespaniel Unescorted Settler

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    Hitler was the Germans worst enemy.

    I also second what Ohwell had to say.
    Stopping one dictator, before the other dictator got all of Europe, was good enough of a reason for Overlord.
     
  14. Hurricane

    Hurricane Sleeping Dragon

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    I have to agree with marshal. The Russians would eventually have reached Berlin even without a second front, but with much higher casulaties and much later (they would definitely have been delayed much more than one single month).

    I of course agree with much everybody else´s comments that the Allies had to stop the russians as much as they had to stop Hitler.
     
  15. RNolan

    RNolan Ri Tuaithe

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    Hi, I'm new here, just thought I'd post something...


    Would a Russian advance without D-Day have ended up breaking Russia? I mean assuming they won the war would the immense casualties in trained men and equipment have weaken them, if not indefineitly, at least for a considerable period. Perhaps they would have been too weak to maintain there hold over Eastern Europe - or at least parts of it. Remember the reserves of the Soviet Union where not infinite.


    Yours

    Ross
     
  16. Alcibiaties of Athenae

    Alcibiaties of Athenae Imperator

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    The main problem I see here is a belief the Soviets were invincable, that they would forge ahead regaurgdless and taken Berlin.

    THIS IS FALICY.

    The Soviets were in a very bad state as the war came to an end, it was also on it's last legs (if you doubt, carefully examine Soviet records released in the early 90s), the Soviets WOULD NOT have won no matter what, without the western and Italian drain, the German would have had enough trained forces (Marshal, the REASON the German forces where si untrained towards the end is a DIRECT result of the Normandy campaign, NOT Soviet action).

    In fact, so weak were the Soviets that they had to delay an attack on Japan till they could move forces to the east, they no longer had new forces to simply throw into the mix, in 45 Russia was at it's end, the same as Germany, manpower-wise.
    It is simply incorrect to say that the Soviets win no matter what, I know that many believe this, but the fact don't support it.
     
  17. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

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    AOA, are you all right? It looks like someone was cracking you over the head with a tire iron when you typed this... :D
     
  18. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

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    And I guess the best answer to this question is that it must have been pretty necessary if Stalin was so damn obsessed with it happening.

    R.III
     
  19. Supernaut

    Supernaut Prince

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    RIII - just was I waas going to say :) Stalin kept banging on to Churchill and Roosevelt about when are you going to invade. Also, Hitler was really worried about the possibility of an Allied invasion in France. His generals saw D-Day as the nail in the coffin - up till then they had thought they had a chance to defeat Russia. The opening of the Second Front also spurred on the opposition to Hitler, as they saw the possibility of surrendering to the ALlies and joining to fight communism. (OK, not a real possibility, but they thought it was and that's what mattered.)

    I've just read a really good biography of Hitler (called Nemesis, second of a 2 volume work, forget the author) and it really brought it home to me how slowly the Russians were advancing, even in 1945. The Germans fought a very good defensive war, and if they had had the mobile reserves which were tied up in the West, especially the forces used in the Ardennes offensive, then they probably could have held out a lot longer, including defending the Rumanian oil-fields which were so crucial. Those extra few months could have made a huge difference in terms of the 'super-weapons' which were being developed, and, of course, in terms of dead Russians.

    One thing that I've always wondered about - why is the Italian campaign never considered the Second Front? Even while it was going on Stalin didn't think it counted and was urging an invasion of France. But it played a huge role in tying up and destroying German material, and knocked Italy out of the Axis, which had amoral effect if nothing else.
     
  20. Alcibiaties of Athenae

    Alcibiaties of Athenae Imperator

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    Would you care to explain this post?
     

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