[NFP] Was Frontier Pack a success for you?

[Zaarin]

I wish I could say the same for me, but no.

In my optics, what we got was seven new game modes, all (ALL) of which are either poorly implemented, poorly balanced, bug ridden, or several of those in tandem. I'd rather have had just two (corporations and barbs), in fact I'd have been happier just with corporations alone, if it had been solidly and properly implemented in the game.

Agreed. Civ6 already has a problem that its features don't work together; making them toggleable has compounded that problem severely, as has a refusal to tie abilities into expansion features (except as minimally as possible).

 

[The Civs 6]

Agreed. Civ6 already has a problem that its features don't work together; making them toggleable has compounded that problem severely, as has a refusal to tie abilities into expansion features (except as minimally as possible).

Yeah just want to piggyback on this - I am not at all a fan of features that are toggleable. I think if you want to make additions to a game that aren't just mods, you need to commit to them being incorporated into the game.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Agreed. Civ6 already has a problem that its features don't work together; making them toggleable has compounded that problem severely, as has a refusal to tie abilities into expansion features (except as minimally as possible).

Yeah just want to piggyback on this - I am not at all a fan of features that are toggleable. I think if you want to make additions to a game that aren't just mods, you need to commit to them being incorporated into the game.

A thought.

GS included all the features from R&F for free and rebalanced several civs.

NFP is going to rebalance 2/3 of the roster again, which includes many DLC/expansion civs.

What is stopping the devs from releasing a "definitive" version of the game at some point where all the modes are retooled to be integrated into the core gameplay? That's just more money they could make down the line.

EDIT: Also, I don't know how to vote given the options. NFP got "out of the way" many staples that I think we expected in a completed game, but in itself is not very interesting to me. My opinion of it very solidly hinges on whether it opened up the developers for a more interesting season 2 pass or if this was our final hurrah.

 

[Zaarin]

A thought.

GS included all the features from R&F for free and rebalanced several civs.

NFP is going to rebalance 2/3 of the roster again, which includes many DLC/expansion civs.

What is stopping the devs from releasing a "definitive" version of the game at some point where all the modes are retooled to be integrated into the core gameplay? That's just more money they could make down the line.

I'm not that optimistic, nor do I think it's even desirable to incorporate all of them (zombies can stay unincorporated, thanks ), but if they wanted to incorporate Barbarian Clans, Corporations, and honestly even Secret Societies into the game better I won't say no. Maybe they could start by better incorporating things like Tourism and religion, though.

 

[The Civs 6]

A thought.

GS included all the features from R&F for free and rebalanced several civs.

NFP is going to rebalance 2/3 of the roster again, which includes many DLC/expansion civs.

What is stopping the devs from releasing a "definitive" version of the game at some point where all the modes are retooled to be integrated into the core gameplay? That's just more money they could make down the line.

EDIT: Also, I don't know how to vote given the options. NFP got "out of the way" many staples that I think we expected in a completed game, but in itself is not very interesting to me. My opinion of it very solidly hinges on whether it opened up the developers for a more interesting season 2 pass or if this was our final hurrah.

Well I'm hoping they take the lessons from these modes (and other aspects of 6) and use it to make a better, tighter 7.

But to talk more specifically, I would love to see a system similar to secret societies replace or fuse with the religion system. I do think there are a lot of positive game ideas to be taken out of these modes. But that has always been an issue with 6 - a lot of interesting ideas, but doesn't add up into a cohesive strategy game whole.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'm not that optimistic, nor do I think it's even desirable to incorporate all of them (zombies can stay unincorporated, thanks ), but if they wanted to incorporate Barbarian Clans, Corporations, and honestly even Secret Societies into the game better I won't say no. Maybe they could start by better incorporating things like Tourism and religion, though.

Yeah I'm about halfway on the issue myself. I feel like secret societies, apocalypse, zombies, heroes should be toggleable mechanics. Extra nonsense you can sprinkle on, exactly as the devs described it.

But barbarians, corporations should not only be fully integrated in the game, but fleshed out about twice as much as they currently are. And I still think dramatic ages features some clear improvements on the mechanic that should be integrated into the R&F gameplay, which could maybe be split apart from dramatic ages itself.

I still get the overwhelming impression that these may have been loosely planned for a third expansion pack, but there were competing interests with all of these fantasy ideas and those ended up dominating the final release plan. I'm not unhappy with the idea of fantasy/sci-fi game modes at all; I'm just disappointed that they got all mixed up in some things that really should have been more fundamental additions.

Well I'm hoping they take the lessons from these modes (and other aspects of 6) and use it to make a better, tighter 7.

Eh, I love so much of VI from a roster choice, music, and art design perspective, that I don't want them to start all over. I would prefer they keep polishing VI and ultimately make it into what VII could be. They could even call the new product VII, I don't really care, but there has been so much care put into VI, it's always only a few patches from being CIV: Ultimate Edition that I don't want to dismiss it yet.

But to talk more specifically, I would love to see a system similar to secret societies replace or fuse with the religion system. I do think there are a lot of positive game ideas to be taken out of these modes. But that has always been an issue with 6 - a lot of interesting ideas, but doesn't add up into a cohesive strategy game whole.

Again, I'm okay with these DLC being "proving grounds" for ideas that will be polished out in later expansions/patches. Yes, things have been coming out really rough, but many major franchises have been leaning into the legacy, seasonal content model and VI is still in a really good position for it. Plus, I want to keep all these cinnamon rolls employed, even if it's just constantly retooling things.

Also, I'm still waiting on citizens to be able to have no religion, Firaxis...just because they get deconverted doesn't mean they revert to tribal pantheons...secularism exists.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

NFP is going to rebalance 2/3 of the roster again, which includes many DLC/expansion civs.

I think it's a general free update to everybody where everyone will get the rebalanced civs, not specifically for owners of the NFP.

Well I'm hoping they take the lessons from these modes (and other aspects of 6) and use it to make a better, tighter 7.

But to talk more specifically, I would love to see a system similar to secret societies replace or fuse with the religion system. I do think there are a lot of positive game ideas to be taken out of these modes. But that has always been an issue with 6 - a lot of interesting ideas, but doesn't add up into a cohesive strategy game whole.

The only one I could realistically see work with religions is the Voidsingers. Maybe if you hadn't found a religion but have the Voidsingers they could "reform" a religion. I know people have really wanted that mechanic, me inlcuded.

 

[Zaarin]

Well I'm hoping they take the lessons from these modes (and other aspects of 6) and use it to make a better, tighter 7.

But to talk more specifically, I would love to see a system similar to secret societies replace or fuse with the religion system. I do think there are a lot of positive game ideas to be taken out of these modes. But that has always been an issue with 6 - a lot of interesting ideas, but doesn't add up into a cohesive strategy game whole.

Absolutely. Civ6 is overflowing with great ideas; I think the devs are very creative. it just needs them to be woven into something more cohesive and coherent.

Also, I'm still waiting on citizens to be able to have no religion, Firaxis...just because they get deconverted doesn't mean they revert to tribal pantheons...secularism exists.

Adding secularism, fundamentalism, and revivalism to religion in the late game would make sense, as well as schisms and reformations in the midgame.

 

[Francel]

I’d really like to know what the devs are thinking.

The question I keep asking is “Why?”

They could have added a snazzy “plagues and pandemics” feature. They could have buffed specialists and large cities, balanced against a health metric. Higher population requires more attention to keep healthy. The new district could have been Wellness District with apothecary, infirmary, hospital... plagues (city specific) would be likely to occur at low health and wreck havoc like a natural disaster. Pandemics would be larger scale. Potential ties with policies, open borders, trade routes, etc.

instead, we get zombies...

???

 

[MagGlb]

I rate it as successful. The Corporations, Heroes and Legends, Dramatic Ages, and Barbarian Clans game modes were all solid additions to varying extents. Not as keen on the Apocalypse and the Secret Societies game modes, but I do play with the latter from time to time. The new civs were definitely nice to keep the game interesting, too. Overall, the NFP was successful. I support the idea of another season pass. There are still some possible game modes that would be interesting additions. Also, there are some absent potential civs (Morocco, Venice, etc) that appear to be popular around here and other boards to accompany new game modes.

 

[The Civs 6]

I'll say this about the "bones" I guess of civ 6, and I think Francel's opinion above illustrates this. A health mechanic involving wellness infrastructure would be fun, probably a worthwhile addition to the game.

But the district system, which to me is one of the key building blocks of Civ 6, isn't going to let that happen. At some point you can't add anymore wonders and districts because you have limited space. We have seen two new districts - a diplomatic quarter and a preserve. I think preserves are a fun idea, but I can't imagine building them in a serious game because the opportunity cost is so high. And diplomatic quarters are just awful all around IMO. The thing is, they aren't conceptually bad ideas for game mechanics. But the district thing is self-limiting to how much junk you can shove into 6.

On top of this, the other key thing about this game is the outsized impact of surviving the early game. Features that have an early game impact are at an absolute premium. If they added a new unit at the end of the tech tree, it would just be a waste of computer space because the end game is basically irrelevant. But if you add more and more stuff to the front, it doesn't really make for compelling new routes in the early game. After all, you are inherently limited because there is one tech you can research, one thing you can build in a city, a certain number of tiles you can work, and so on. Like, heroes are great and all, but my early to mid game progression allows me to play with a single hero before the opportunity cost exceeds the benefits. Likewise, secret societies are great, but they come at the cost of engaging with the governor system, because you just are limited in the # of early-mid game titles.

So when it comes to adding expansions to the bones of this game, you have to get really clever (like 5 did with ideologies). I don't think that is a sustainable way to maintain this game. That's why I want to see 7 - because I think 6 has basically maxed out it's potential.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

They could have added a snazzy “plagues and pandemics” feature. They could have buffed specialists and large cities, balanced against a health metric. Higher population requires more attention to keep healthy. The new district could have been Wellness District with apothecary, infirmary, hospital... plagues (city specific) would be likely to occur at low health and wreck havoc like a natural disaster. Pandemics would be larger scale. Potential ties with policies, open borders, trade routes, etc.

Saved for the Italy pack?

I think there's enough design space for a second season's worth of modes. They haven't even touched sci-fi stuff like cyberpunk or aliens or space colonization. I think they may have wanted to do a public health mode but pulled it due to current political climate...but it could always reappear in later content.

 

[Txomin]

I very much enjoy it. The only civ choice I haven't been a fan of is Portugal and I've enjoyed the new wonders, districts, gp, and citystates. The modes are more hit and miss for me though the only one I actively dislike is apocalypse. I expect I won't like zombies either but I haven't played it so I can't really make that judgment yet.
Definitely would buy more content, though if they decide this is it for the game and they want a few years off to develop civ 7 I'd be happy with that decision.

 

[Francel]

There is a lot of room for improvement, but they don't seem to want to do the work (or can't). It sounds mean to say that, but instead of taking the time to overhaul and improve the core of the game, they keep adding bizarre fluff.

The only one of the six modes that truly fits is the corporations mode, though it could have been done better.

--> Ideologies + Health/Disease + Corporations with 8 new civs could easily have been enough for a 3rd expansion, whether released all at once or piecemeal. Also, diplomatic victory and world congress badly need overhauled.

______________

Regarding districts, I wouldn't have minded axing neighborhoods - maybe make them a city project that doesn't take up any map space or something. I don't mind gov plaza and diplo quarter so much, because there can only be one per empire. A world wonder could have done something along the lines of what the preserve does.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think there's enough design space for a second season's worth of modes. They haven't even touched sci-fi stuff like cyberpunk or aliens or space colonization. I think they may have wanted to do a public health mode but pulled it due to current political climate...but it could always reappear in later content.

Yeah I think there are enough to make a second season of modes, though I'd rather them not move into the sci-fi realm.
I can live with the fantasy stuff they've released other than zombies, which I was hoping for it to be a "fantasy" version of a pandemic mode where civs could work together to fight off zombie outbreaks, and a research cure city project in cities with a Research labs etc. Instead it's just barbarians that create more barbarians the more units it kills.

 

[Nerevatar]

I didn't mean to imply it was only some people on here that were unhappy but honestly it seems to have been a huge commercial success and well received generally.

No ill intent and with all due respect, but how do you judge it to be well received? Last I checked a few different rankings, most packs were fairly low ranked, way below R&F and GS. Steam rankings, for example, which I typically find quite generous, had packs at either mixed or even negative. That is very bad.

Is there another way to judge if a game is 'well received' that I am not seeing?

Also, how do you judge it to be a 'huge' commercial success? Genuine question. If there is some statistics I'm missing I would love to be pointed in the right direction.

 

[Navelgazer]

For me: Absolutely an outstanding success, which isn't saying at all that it was perfect.

There was power creep from civs like GC, Byzantium, Vietnam and (I'd argue, at least) Ethiopia, most Civs in the pack provided an interesting and unique play experience, whether for multiple playthroughs (see: Vietnam, Ethiopia, Gaul) or just one (Babylon, almost certainly the biggest disappointment for me after I got over how wild the design seemed at first.) ANd the fact that they were able to do these varying ideas within the Vanilla mechanics is very encouraging, especially if they do another Season Pass for Civ6 (which feels more likely to me now that they keep referring to the April Patch as the "Season Finale" rather than the end of the line for this game.

And it's in that line that I'm down with even the game modes that don't do it for me. I have no interest in Zombies, which seems to be the consensus on these forums, but players elsewhere are excited for it, and if Zombies help sell this idea enough for future content to be added in this way, so be it.

Finally, I just like the model of doling out the civs over the course of the year. It keeps my excitement up, gets me to engage with civs and modes I'd probably ignore if everything came in one expansion, and it keeps up the speculation over here, which I enjoy about as much as I enjoy playing the game itself.

 

[Linklite]

It's a pretty solid counter argument. Though I guess you could put a civ with the ability to form monopolies in as a vanilla civ and give it extra abilities if the corporations mode ka enabled for example? The features in the NFP could end up as civ abilities with those civs getting extra icing if the specific mode is active...

That said I think the mixing and matching has overall improved game variety for me and enhanced civ6's longevity and I think they have enough design space to work with..

The problem is having two bonuses complicated things, both front end (hello England and your small essay on your various bonuses) and back end. They did it for Georgia because DA basically broke their bonus. Sumeria got an additional boost for H&L, I guess, but I doubt that they'd do a full on civ for a game mode, then basically revamp it for without the game mode, at least not the way things are set out.

Which is why I'm so divided. It would be a lot of work to make game modes both modular and interactive - work that the designers aren't willing to put in or, if they are, think would be better off elsewhere. Why make 5 civs that have different bonuses for certain game modes when you could have 10 or 15 which don't, for the same effort? Those extra civs would being home a lot more sales than the interactivity of preexisting civs would.

It's an unfortunate fact that everything is about compromise, and modularity ends up compromising integration.

Yeah I think there are enough to make a second season of modes, though I'd rather them not move into the sci-fi realm.
I can live with the fantasy stuff they've released other than zombies, which I was hoping for it to be a "fantasy" version of a pandemic mode where civs could work together to fight off zombie outbreaks, and a research cure city project in cities with a Research labs etc. Instead it's just barbarians that create more barbarians the more units it kills.

Honestly though, given the shallowness of the other modes, I think your expectations were a little too high. Don't get me wrong, I prefer your idea to (what my impression is) what we're getting, but none of the game modes came close to that level of complexity, with maybe the exception of SS, and even that...

Maybe that'll form part of an expansion at some point in the franchise.

On a more general note, I think they could have done better by making two Season Passes, New Frontiers with more realistic stuff like Interactive Barbarians, and then called the other something more fantastical that contained the more fantasy elements like SS and Zombie Survival.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Honestly though, given the shallowness of the other modes, I think your expectations were a little too high. Don't get me wrong, I prefer your idea to (what my impression is) what we're getting, but none of the game modes came close to that level of complexity, with maybe the exception of SS, and even that...

I don't think SS was necessarily a shallow mode, in fact I think it was the biggest, which is what this could have been compared too. Each one of the SS gave us at least one of either a unit tied to the particular SS or some sort of infrastructure.

 

[Chocolate Pi]

Secret Societies I consider great content, but with two astricks.

First, it bled into fantasy; I'm not anti-fantasy, and if SS and some now-toggleable Natural Wonders was the extent of the NFP's fantastic leanings, I doubt it would have been an issue to many. But I can see how it's too much for people, when delivered alongside comet strikes and volcano sacrifices and mythical heroes and zombies.

The other caveat with SS is how much power they added to the game. (This is also true for Heroes, Corporations, Barbarians, and (counter-intuitively) Dramatic Ages.) Yields and growth are bigger and bigger with every new mode, but the time it takes to build things or achieve most victory conditions is unchanged.

If this awkward imbalance is addressed, I have no problem with the modularity of it all. (Though Corporations really should be connected to more things, ideally...)