Was the Ballista Elephant Supposed to have First Strikes?

[Chairo Hisui]

I have no basis behind this statement other than watching the video on the Official BTS website of the Holkans. The Holkan special ability is that it is immune to first strikes and doesn't require resources. Now, it's paired up with a BE... which would make sense if the BE was supposed to be an Elephant with First Strike abilities.

 

[AfterShafter]

Hrm... I've got to admit, I don't see any reason why the Ballista Elephant is "paired" with the Holkans - distant parts of the world and all, and they don't seem like natural counters or anything (though, spearmen are the defence against War Elephants at the time). I don't think it would be a bad idea to give the only very situationally useful Ballista Elephant first strikes, but I don't think there's any reason to do with tie-ins or pairing and whatnot.

In short, I don't see much reason for a Holkan/BE pairing, but first strikes on a BE wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Chairo Hisui]

A First Strike or two would make the situational BE into a more useful multi-use UU. The Samurai is a prime example of how first strikes can make a unit amazing.

 

[AfterShafter]

A First Strike or two would make the situational BE into a more useful multi-use UU. The Samurai is a prime example of how first strikes can make a unit amazing.

Yep, more or less what I was thinking. Though, the Samurai is on a more general use base unit, a war elephant with two free first strikes and the ability to pick off stacked mounted units would be a worthwhile unit, but I'd say no-where near overly powerful - which seems an ideal combination for a UU. Besides, rare resource UU + very situational UU is a combination that just doesn't make for great utility.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Either first strikes or immunity to them would make the BE a lot more powerful, and I'd be for that to some extent.

Just can't buff them TOO much, because regular elephants are already ridiculous.

 

[dragodon64]

True, but how common is ivory? Elephants are the most useful animals in war (next to humans, of course) and they beat the crud out of horses in everything but speed (in game and rl) so it makes sense that they are awesome for their time.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

True, but how common is ivory? Elephants are the most useful animals in war (next to humans, of course) and they beat the crud out of horses in everything but speed (in game and rl) so it makes sense that they are awesome for their time.

History doesn't have much record as elephants being an overpowering war machine, but as you said ivory is rare, and that sucks for the sole civ that relies on it for a UU. The BE is barely more useful than a regular elephant anyway in its current form, although regular elephants in civ IV are quite superb.

They're a completely different role from HA's though.

 

[Feyaria]

Ballista elephants should require no resource, like arabian camel archers. That would make them a superior UU.

 

[Chairo Hisui]

Ballista elephants should require no resource, like arabian camel archers. That would make them a superior UU.

This would be in place of their Horse Hunting ability, right? I firmly believe that making the BE simply be resourceless, thus letting the single civ always have access to them, would be a decent give. Then the idea would be "Khmer? Crud, build pikemen to take down those ele's!"

Another idea would be collateral damage, although that's way too powerful IMO, on a Praetorian level.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This would be in place of their Horse Hunting ability, right? I firmly believe that making the BE simply be resourceless, thus letting the single civ always have access to them, would be a decent give. Then the idea would be "Khmer? Crud, build pikemen to take down those ele's!"

Another idea would be collateral damage, although that's way too powerful IMO, on a Praetorian level.

Any elephant unit with access to collateral damage would be way, way superior to praetorians. Prats would look like sissy cupcakes next to collateral elephants.

Resource-less ballista elephants would make them useful. Khmer would actually be among the top civs in the game then though, for better or worse...probably not quite overpowered but almost rome-class.

 

[Fei Kelei]

I agree with Feyaria that they shouldn't need Ivory. They could be more or less exactly like Camel Archers: just like the unit they replace except requiring no resources and with a slightly higher withdrawal chance.

 

[obsolete]

History doesn't have much record as elephants being an overpowering war machine,

Alex's superb and trained armies got butchered up pretty bad by these. His generals insisted on having some of them for their own after confronting them for the first time.

As is, everyone will always disagree and argue about which UU is the best. But there is one thing, where just about everyone agrees on, in a unanomous vote. And that is.... the Balista Elephant is without a doubt, the most poorest of UUs.

Except, there will always be one guy who says the Fast Worker is worse, because it will lose to a BE in a battle. Ahaha!

 

[Bob the Barbari]

Alex's superb and trained armies got butchered up pretty bad by these. His generals insisted on having some of them for their own after confronting them for the first time.

The main use for elephants was to scare the enemy and enemy horses. Julius Caesar took an elephant to Britain with him and Britons just fleed at it's sight. There are many myths surrounding the use of elephants in ancient times like Hannibal's army (only one elephant made it to the Italy, all others died on the way and this last one was only used as Hannibal's mount when entering captured cities). As for Aleksander he is believed to be the first Greek (or rather Macedon) general to face the elephants in battle (although I'm not sure about Xenophon and the 10 thousands, they could meet them on their way or during their service under Cyrus the Younger). Don't get fooled by that "300" crap. Xerxes took no elephants to Greece.

 

[Chairo Hisui]

Is there a Mod to make BE resourceless? Or can it be attatched to a different mod?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Alex's superb and trained armies got butchered up pretty bad by these. His generals insisted on having some of them for their own after confronting them for the first time.

As is, everyone will always disagree and argue about which UU is the best. But there is one thing, where just about everyone agrees on, in a unanomous vote. And that is.... the Balista Elephant is without a doubt, the most poorest of UUs.

Except, there will always be one guy who says the Fast Worker is worse, because it will lose to a BE in a battle. Ahaha!

Well, one war during one period of time has very little on the amount archery, melee, and horse-based forces factored in.

I agree the BE sucks. It's stock unit that it replaces is overpowering to begin with, but the BE adds very, very little in a typical game. Not only is it a niche ability, it is a niche ability that is ONLY worthwhile in very select DEFENSIVE situations. Outside of early/mid game city sieges where you're on the defensive and they have a mix of mounted and anti-melee you need to beat, the BE gives absolutely no extra benefits. Even woofers that typically come too late to matter in Civ IV such as SEALS and panzers have more utility than THAT.

Nobody has an infantry UU either. Must be due to how overpowering infantry are to begin with.

 

[Andvare]

The main use for elephants was to scare the enemy and enemy horses. Julius Caesar took an elephant to Britain with him and Britons just fleed at it's sight. There are many myths surrounding the use of elephants in ancient times like Hannibal's army (only one elephant made it to the Italy, all others died on the way and this last one was only used as Hannibal's mount when entering captured cities). As for Aleksander he is believed to be the first Greek (or rather Macedon) general to face the elephants in battle (although I'm not sure about Xenophon and the 10 thousands, they could meet them on their way or during their service under Cyrus the Younger). Don't get fooled by that "300" crap. Xerxes took no elephants to Greece.

Well, there is a big difference in African elephants, which Hannibal used, and Indian elephants, which Alexander faced. Indian elephants are easier controlled, and thus better for war. African elephants aren't that good for domestication.
And don't get me started on 300, the story of Thermopylae is enough propaganda as it is (ancient Greek propaganda no less). The battle was a failure for the Greeks, not for the Persians.

 

[Tephros]

If I recall correctly, horses fear elephants naturally, but horses can be raised with the smell of elephants to be immune to it. Elephants were also unreliable and may panick and trample whoever is in their way, friend or foe. When Scipio Africanus beat Hannibal with his war elephants, all he had to do was tell his soldiers to form columns with enough space for the elephants to pass through. In another case, can't recall who, somebody told their ranged soldiers to take out the eyes of the elephants, which caused the elephants to turn and trample their own soldiers.

A first strike for Ballista Elephants would make sense given their armament, but would be overpowered IMO. Making some random chance that the elephant harm themselves and others would be realistic too.Making them resourceless would help balance the game.

I agree the BE sucks. It's stock unit that it replaces is overpowering to begin with, but the BE adds very, very little in a typical game. Not only is it a niche ability, it is a niche ability that is ONLY worthwhile in very select DEFENSIVE situations.

Sucks? I wouldn't say it's great or terrible. The holkan is sucky, though. When will a spearman encounter first strikes in a realistic battle? Literally only if they're facing Mongolia, and even then it's not decisive. Resourceless makes it better than useless I guess, but a resourceless axeman is much better.

One use of the BE is when your stack of doom ends up next to their stack of doom, esp. in their territory, and theirs is full of horse archers with some spears. If promoted as flankers, the horse archers have a coin-toss chance of flanking your siege units each, and could even kill your siege units if there are enough of them. Not common I know. I can only recall one time getting foiled that way. But my point is it's not strictly defensive in terms of picking off the mounted members of pillagers if they're smart enough to send in mixed stacks.

Outside of early/mid game city sieges where you're on the defensive and they have a mix of mounted and anti-melee you need to beat, the BE gives absolutely no extra benefits. Even woofers that typically come too late to matter in Civ IV such as SEALS and panzers have more utility than THAT.

I have literally never had a tank fight a tank, probably because I love advanced flight - so that makes panzers even more useless than the Holkan to me. At least the holkan has a resource advantage. It is interesting though that the panzer can beat the modern armor if the modern armor isn't promoted defensively. I can't think of another unit that beats what replaces it like that.

SEALS are great units, but come too late to matter as you said.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Holkans can choke and speed rush civs without copper. They're among the fastest guaranteed units in the game to hit with, faster than the dog soldier. They are also better than dogs at attacking cities without axes, because first strike immunity vastly increases their chances of dealing damage to an archer before dying. They are viable as a rush unit and potentially very annoying as a choke unit.

BE to attack mounted in ENEMY territory? That's got to be a joke, right? I really hope you're kidding. This ability doesn't work vs mounted in cities. No stack, under any circumstances, should be field-attacked in its own territory, since it has double the movement of the BE. Those HAs (or more likely, catapults) WILL hit your elephants first if you don't destroy their SoD in your own territory (unless the AI flagrantly screws up because it sucks worse than any UU), and rather than mounted siege is likely to be the biggest issue when it happens.

So again (and I already said it), the only use BE have over their regular unit is the ability to attack mounted first when it enters your territory as part of a stack. This does, of course, only matter if a) the enemy even has mounted and b) that mounted isn't elephants which would defend anyway. This is a SPECTACULARLY NICHE ability on one of the more rarely-attained (in a timely fashion) UU's in the game to begin with. You're going to make a case that this is somehow better than a guaranteed unit for extremely early attacks?

I wiped out an entire civ with holkans on immortal in one of the immortal U games. I lost the game afterward, but ONLY because I sucked at the time and wasn't ready for immortal. The rush itself was successful, and allowed me to expand to 14 cities. One probably wouldn't use them on deity except in 1 neighbor starts to choke-rush, but hell...a lot of otherwise sound UUs are weaker at deity.

Holkans own barbs for a long time, too. Easily until axes show, and putting off archery until that finally occurs allows you to get more important techs first. They're also a GREAT UU for the AI, to screw with all those persia/egypt lovers out there (and potentially even quechas). They're a mid tier UU or so, way way above BE.

 

[Tephros]

Holkans can choke and speed rush civs without copper. They're among the fastest guaranteed units in the game to hit with, faster than the dog soldier.

They are not faster than the dog soldier. Both are resourceless. Both cost the same. Holkan requires hunting and bronze; dog requires only bronze. I wouldn't attack cities with either but I've never tried the choking thing. Sounds like a real waste of resources. I don't like to destroy what I want to take.

BE to attack mounted in ENEMY territory? That's got to be a joke, right? I really hope you're kidding. This ability doesn't work vs mounted in cities. No stack, under any circumstances, should be field-attacked in its own territory, since it has double the movement of the BE.

Yeah I know. I sometimes encounter stacks of doom outside of cities in enemy territory.

Roads only have 2 movement at that stage so when you're in enemy territory and not adjacent to their city, you have a roughly 50% chance of finding yourself next to their stack of doom before it attacks you. I do attack the city I can get to fastest generally, but I do spend more time not adjacent to a city than adjacent to an enemy city when moving through enemy territory.

I don't see any reason not to take out their horse archers if your SoD is on defensable territory like a forest or hill. Especially if you have a woodsman healer. So you declare war and then wait for their stack of doom to come into your territory? I usually head for the city with their stack of doom provided there is a hill/forest path to it.

I wiped out an entire civ with holkans on immortal in one of the immortal U games. I lost the game afterward, but ONLY because I sucked at the time and wasn't ready for immortal. The rush itself was successful, and allowed me to expand to 14 cities. One probably wouldn't use them on deity except in 1 neighbor starts to choke-rush, but hell...a lot of otherwise sound UUs are weaker at deity.

The enemy on immortal, as you know, would normally hook up to copper before you can get a significant stack to their cities. But I suppose that could be countered with posting a pair of holkan on the resource, though I'm not sure if that would be fast enough, probably not reliably. I'm not a fan of early rushes on the difficulty I'm playing on now. But I admit I haven't tried a spearman UU rush. Never even crossed my mind.

14 cities early on immortal = no research. When I first started immortal I would play as victoria of rome, expand really fast like I would on emperor, and get vastly outresearched, and then lose. Now until I have courthouses and/or currency, the expansion is conservative, like half that many cities.

Holkans own barbs for a long time, too. Easily until axes show, and putting off archery until that finally occurs allows you to get more important techs first. They're also a GREAT UU for the AI, to screw with all those persia/egypt lovers out there (and potentially even quechas). They're a mid tier UU or so, way way above BE.

I'm not completely sure as I haven't tried what you suggested, but I would guess they're below average. Very rare not to have copper or iron in a game, except archipelago. And a rush that early wouldn't be economically viable most of the time unless you pack the map or happen to have somebody very close to you. But I still like the Maya as their UB is top-tier IMO.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well yeah the Maya UB is stronger as a UB than the UU is among UUs...but as you said the maya UB is top tier.

I actually didn't MEAN to type that the holkan is faster than the dog soldier...but rather better at defeating archers and the same speed as dog soldiers. It was pretty close to bed time for me there .

14 cities by the early ADs is not bankruptcy on immortal. However, the rush didn't do that, rather it got me about 9 cities with space for 5 more, which is actually quite easy to fund. Pacal is, after all, financial. The only thing he needs is enough from resources or HR to grow the cities, and financial will keep him out of strike.

Granted, capturing these cities so early WILL set you way back in tech. However, the player has a lot of means to climb out of a tech hole and into the lead or at least middle of the pack (with a city advantage). For example, many AIs put off philosophy after it's been founded (and it occasionally goes later...like 400 AD where you'd still be able to get it first even if you did get 14 cities!) so bulbing that with a scientist and trading it judiciously can make up a lot of ground. Education is similar in that the AIs delay it a ton (my most recent game liberalism went at 1000 AD, but well over half the AIs didn't have education yet). Getting anything a couple AIs don't have will start vaulting you back into tech relevance.

I had it looking pretty bad in LHC julius caesar ----> all but one AI had every tech I had and was more than 10+ techs ahead. I could have won space in that game...but I went a military route once I had industrialism/flight. Those are isolation maps though, and I only had 11 cities. I actually WISHED I'd had room for more.

Capturing cities means less work on infrastructure, some buffer gold, and many improvements built...not to mention the pop. As long as you grab workers too it'd be easy to afford double digit cities on immortal via conquest.