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Was Wu Zetian's inclusion in Civ 5 suppose to be controversial?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by LiamX, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. LiamX

    LiamX Chieftain

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    I know this is kind of late but Wu Zetian is perhaps one of the worst if not the worst leader pick in Civ 5.
    China is less amazing because she's the one leading it. Not mighty Chinese emperors like Tang Taizong and Han Wudi. Then when you look at other civs, they have among the best of their leaders: Rome - Augustus Caesar. Inca - Pachacuti. Japan - Nobunaga. And so on..

    Not saying about her AI or the abilities they've given her but as a history geek, she's insignificant compared to the many much more competent Chinese Emperors. I can list at least 8 who are better than her.

    Now I know she's the only female emperor of China but that really isn't a valid reason for me. You're a great leader because you've done something amazing for your nation, not what you are. Meritocracy in other word.

    So, as the question goes, Was Wu's inclusion suppose to be controversial like Seondeok's in Civ 6?
    If not, why is she there over Tang Taizong, Han Wudi, Yongle Emperor, Kangxi Emperor, Liu Bang, Wen of Sui, Qin Shi Huang, etc etc
     
  2. Equilin

    Equilin Chieftain

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    Because significance is not the only thing they care about when choosing leaders, especially for major civs like China. For minor civs, one-shot civs and such it will be one of their known significant leader, but for major civs who has lots of candidates Firaxis will try to get diversity in every aspect up, mostly gender diversity (to appeal to the normies).
     
  3. Volcanon

    Volcanon Chieftain

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    It would have been fun if they had multiple Chinese emperors. Having just one is like having Ceasar count for all of Europe.

    The Qin emperor would be the legalist ultra warmonger. The treasure ships guy would be the hopeful, exploratory Chinese emperor. Any of the Qing emperors would be isolationist. That sort of thing.
     
  4. LiamX

    LiamX Chieftain

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    Hmm. I don't get where they get this gender diversity = good sales. Civ 4 is one of the best games Civ has ever had and we know how many male-female ratio there was. Plus there has been plenty of games with no gender diversity at all and are the most successful. I'm looking at you Total War.
    So gender diversity and appeal to normies doesn't really go together at all in my opinion.
     
  5. Equilin

    Equilin Chieftain

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    Sorry if i wasn't being clear enough. By normies i mean the media, which tends to nitpick everything and whatever the media says can have an impact on the game. It can also means people who never knew Civ in any form before and can easily misunderstand by some trivial point.
    Civ4 is one of the best games, by what standard? If it's CFC standard then it's not relevant in the picture of Firaxis. I never looked at the statistics so how is the sales between each iteration in comparison to each other? I heard Civ5 make quite a lot and it's considered bad here so......
    Also it's not just games with gender diversity, it's "game representing the entire history of human civilizations with gender diversity". If the ratio is too low there will be random feminist group ranting about it on the media and as i said, it can have quite an impact. In Civ4 times i believe these movements don't really pick on it, but by 2010 it was different.
    How is TW the most successful? They are good but i don't think "most successful".

    For an example, let's say 3 civ iterations have China with just the usual male emperors, then there will be a critic saying "Are the devs trying to overshadow women's role in history?" then boom, damage done. Firaxis wouldn't want such a thing to happen even if the real damage is minor, better be safe.
     
  6. LiamX

    LiamX Chieftain

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    Yeah, I kinda agree with you on the media. It's really sad what they've come to these days. Putting personal political stuffs over real unbias news. Sad most companies have to give to their whims. That's why we needed movements like Gamergate. I would fully support Gamergate now if they were to revive.

    As for sales. hmm, Civ 4 made 3 million while Civ 5 made 1.69 million. Civ 3 had 2 million. The civ iteration that had the most "gender diversity" Civ 2 made the least with 1 million copies.
    http://www.vgchartz.com/game/43507/sid-meiers-civilization-v/Global/ - for Civ 5
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games - for the other 3

    Lastly, if we're going by representing the history of the human civilizations then there should be much more men than women than what's shown in civ 5 / civ 6. In many civilizations, there's only like 1, 2 or 3 female leaders in its history compared to the many male leaders. China for one, since we are talking about China, only had 1 female Empress in its entirety of its history and China began in like 2100BC if we count the Xia Dynasty.
     
  7. Equilin

    Equilin Chieftain

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    Kinda agree with you (also btw afaik most sources will cite Shang as the first dynasty in Chinese history since (I assumed) the first writing is from that period).

    The leaders (as I heard somewhere in this forum) are picked from interesting period of that civ. And when a woman stepped to the throne (or equal counterparts) that period will (most of the time) become interesting for that civ's history, then devs exaggregate "interesting" to include more female leaders on that basis. Some works fine (Isabella of Spain, Elizabeth of England, Catherine of Russia) but others don't, sadly.
     
  8. SLGray

    SLGray Chieftain

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    Do you believe everyone in the world would say Augustus Caesar was the best leader to pick. No you would not. they tried to pick a diverse group of leaders in the civs. For example: Alexander the Great. He was not even Greek. He was Macedonian. He conquered the Greek city-states. Do you think they believe he was the greatest ruler. The leaders they picked can be looked at as good, bad, or who cares. They should add the ability to have different rulers in one game. Like dynasties.

    P.S. For England, I would have picked Victoria. Reasons: longest reign, rules over a large area of the world, tried to help her subjects including the Irish, created a family connection between many royal families, etc.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
  9. LiamX

    LiamX Chieftain

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    ^ I think diversity is already filled up when we're talking about civ. I mean we have Asian civs, European civs, African civs and so on..
    So choosing the best leaders and have them as all-male for example would still make the game diverse. In fact, it's way more interesting than what they did.
     

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