wasting beakers?

[danaphanous]

I think I have a fairly good grasp of the beaker mechanic. I know how to beeline efficiently. I know how to slingshot for early science techs. I know how to capitlize on early beakers, etc.

However, I recently saw a Deity player I really respect complaining on a forum post that he "wasted beakers" using his great scientist and ended up getting the tech for crossbowmen a turn later then he'd intended by mistake. He intimated that it had something to do with the fact that scientists can only complete one tech a turn even if you have the beakers for 2 or more and that the fact that it stopped on the second tech "wasted something". I'm kind of confused by this. I had heard that scientists have a set amount of science they bulb. If you get an overflow it kicks in next turn as the same amount right? So I'm unsure how beakers could ever be "wasted" unless they are going into unintended techs. Does this happen if you don't pre-allocate? Or is it worse to use a scientist when you have 1-2 turns of a tech left? I didn't think so, but if there is something here I want to know about it.

EDIT: Another unrelated question about the spying aspect of science I had was whether or not to plant my new spy from entering the renaissance directly in my capital as defense or send him out to steal some techs:

Spoiler :

I usually play immortal/Deity so even if I'm doing well in technology there is always someone who has a few I don't, so I used to think it was a no-brainer to send him out to steal immediately and save me a dozen or so turns of science before the AI fall behind. However, as I've improved my early-game science I've been getting ahead earlier and earlier. My latest immortal game I was average-rated in science entering the classical, better than most by medieval, and I am essentially the tech leader entering the renaissance. I know some guys that have some techs I don't (trade route notifications) however, they are probably crappier techs and all the suckers on my continent or stealing from me like crazy. Like, I lose a tech every five turns it seems to some thief. This has never happened to me before and I'm wondering if it is better in cases like this to plant my spy in the capital and let him kill a few to set these guys back. An elite spy will then steal and rig way faster for me and I can move him out later once he levels up. The problem? The RNG. I tried both ways in seperate games. I am pretty much guaranteed to get some slow techs (in 12-14 turns stealing) so that is a definate benefit. Whether or not I kill the AI's spies seems to be luck. I tried, the lvl 1 spy failed and now indonesia always steals and gets away with it as his spy is a higher level. I was unlucky with germany as well and wasted 30 turns with my spy failing to kill anyone. So now I'm wondering if it is even worth it. I know I'll get a lvl from stealing and these lvl 1 spies seem to suck at killing sometimes.

thanks in advance,

DNPNS

 

[rawrtrav]

I'll try my best to answer the questions here.

If you get an overflow it kicks in next turn as the same amount right?

Yes, it overflows into another tech.

So I'm unsure how beakers could ever be "wasted" unless they are going into unintended techs. Does this happen?

The only way this happens is if you do not have any techs lined up. Say your GS can bulb 5k beakers, and you need 3.5k beakers to finish the tech you're aiming for, the remaining 1.5k beakers would instantly be put on another tech. If you have a tech queued up then the extra beakers will go into that; if you do not have another tech queued up then it chooses based on what the computer thinks is the best for you - which is normally actually the worst when you're trying to beeline the science techs.

Or is it worse to use a scientist when you have 1-2 turns of a tech left? I didn't think so, but if there is something here I want to know about it.

As long as you have other techs lined up for when you complete your current tech, then there's no problem with using the GS whenever, it doesn't make any difference.

It's always best to have a tech lined up because it works the same way for standard beakers per turn - that's why sometimes when you complete a tech it will say 1 turn less than the other techs at the same level, the extra beakers from your science per turn have been automatically put into that tech.

 

[danaphanous]

I'll try my best to answer the questions here.
The only way this happens is if you do not have any techs lined up. Say your GS can bulb 5k beakers, and you need 3.5k beakers to finish the tech you're aiming for, the remaining 1.5k beakers would instantly be put on another tech. If you have a tech queued up then the extra beakers will go into that; if you do not have another tech queued up then it chooses based on what the computer thinks is the best for you - which is normally actually the worst when you're trying to beeline the science techs.

As long as you have other techs lined up for when you complete your current tech, then there's no problem with using the GS whenever, it doesn't make any difference.

It's always best to have a tech lined up because it works the same way for standard beakers per turn - that's why sometimes when you complete a tech it will say 1 turn less than the other techs at the same level, the extra beakers from your science per turn have been automatically put into that tech.

Interesting. I had heard people say to do this and had started doing it, but I hadn't realized that bulbing would directly research another tech without you choosing. That makes sense now that I think about it, and fits the context of what my guy, glory7, was saying. So, if you finish a tech naturally does this happen or only with bulbing and ISS boost? It seems like if you finish naturally with a large overflow that multiple techs have a lower average cost so I thought I was "choosing" where the overflow would go. Is this true or is there waste here too if I haven't pre-chosen?

Thanks, I also read there was some sort of a science overflow exploit if you were researching techs most players already had, where you get some multiplication, however, he was the first to this tech so I figured that wasn't what he was talking about. This didn't ever seem significant in my games except for once when I was inland and ignored sailing for a long time. I think I noticed the overflow was a bit more than I put in. weird. Usually not worth waiting though as the extra trade route slot and lighthouse are too valuable.

 

[rawrtrav]

So, if you finish a tech naturally does this happen or only with bulbing? It seems like if you finish naturally with a large overflow that multiple techs have a lower average cost so I thought I was "choosing" where the overflow would go. Is this true or is there waste here too?

It's always best to have a tech lined up because it works the same way for standard beakers per turn - that's why sometimes when you complete a tech it will say 1 turn less than the other techs at the same level, the extra beakers from your science per turn have been automatically put into that tech.

One way to check this is to hover over each tech and see how much science progress it already has. It's about half an half whether the computer decides to actually put the beakers into one tech definitively or let you choose where those extra beakers are put. It also seems to be dependent on which part of the tech tree it is, as in if it's the first half of an era or the second half.

From my experience, if you have multiple options for advancing technology wise in the first half of an era, the computer lets you decide where the surplus beakers are put, where as in the second half it automatically puts them into what tech is suggested.

 

[danaphanous]

ha! oops. Thanks man.

 

[Memoryjar]

For spies. I send them to caps to steal tech to upgrade them. Upgrade is what I'm looking for. Coup is essential on Deity, less on Immortal.

 

[Uzael36]

When you use a GS, it will overflow into 1 tech, but not more. Sometimes a GS will be able to give more science than what finishing the current tech can, and the tech that it overflows into. And it will always stop a turn before finishing the overflow tech. However, it is not required to have selected the overflow tech. If nothing is selected, it will show every tech in the grid as if it received the overflow and when you select which one to tech next, that one will get the overflow the following turn.

One more thing to note. Only use a GS 1 time per turn, as you do not get overflow tech on multiple GS uses on the same turn.

 

[RonMar]

"One more thing to note. Only use a GS 1 time per turn, as you do not get overflow tech on multiple GS uses on the same turn."

I don't believe this is true. I have bulbed more than one on a turn and have gotten overflows. Sometimes, I have even been able to get more than one tech on a series of bulbs, assuming the current tech has a good balance of science already researched for it.

I do not think you ever "lose" bpt from using GS's. By-the-way, by hovering over the bulb on a GS you can see how many bpts you will get from bulbing it on that turn.

 

[rawrtrav]

"One more thing to note. Only use a GS 1 time per turn, as you do not get overflow tech on multiple GS uses on the same turn."

I don't believe this is true. I have bulbed more than one on a turn and have gotten overflows. Sometimes, I have even been able to get more than one tech on a series of bulbs, assuming the current tech has a good balance of science already researched for it.

Yeah, gotta agree here. Use as many GS per turn as you want as it definitely still overflows. I've managed to get from Railroad to Satellites in one turn before by using 6 GS.

 

[danaphanous]

Thanks, The consensus appears to be that you don't "lose" beakers ever, but sometimes if you aren't carfeful the game will put your overflow next turn into a tech you didn't intend slowing you down via tech order. This is useful to know.

 

[Uzael36]

I've had many situations where if I'm going in a straight line, the 2nd bulb won't finish the tech unless I swap to a different tech before my 2nd bulb on the same turn. It sure seemed as if it won't let you continue to get multiple techs on 1 turn in a straight line.

 

[rawrtrav]

I've had many situations where if I'm going in a straight line, the 2nd bulb won't finish the tech unless I swap to a different tech before my 2nd bulb on the same turn. It sure seemed as if it won't let you continue to get multiple techs on 1 turn in a straight line.

If you're in a position where you have 2 GS and you're researching Scientific Theory, maybe one or two turns away from completing it, beelining to Radio for example, then you can bulb the first GS and it would complete Scientific Theory (Assuming you have enough) and would get a considerable amount into Electricity. If you bulb your second GS then you wouldn't finish Electricity, even if you have enough to finish it. However, those beakers are NOT lost, they're put into another tech. BUT, if you then bulb a third and/or fourth GS, you would finish Electricity and possibly even finish Radio. I'm not sure what the requirement is to break through that wall, but if you have enough GS you can break through it, hence why I went from Railroad to Satellites in one turn.

 

[Uzael36]

Just a minute ago, I was researching satellites with just 3 turns to go, with a GS that would give 10k+ research. This is several 1000 research overboard. I had satellites selected as my last tech to research at that point. When I used my GS (I had just used one to get there), it showed me needing 1 more turn to finish satellites.

Something is not normal under that circumstance. Normally, if was there, without having used a GS before, it would have finished satellites and showed every other tech on the page with the overflow amount towards it.

It is possible that under the condition of using a GS prior in the same turn, you can only get overflow on a tech you have currently selected, but under normal circumstances, it does not require that.

 

[phillipwyllie]

Science overflow
Regardless of the source(RA's, GS bulbs, normal overflow) beakers always overflow into the next tech so you never waste beakers. In fact this is how the exploit works as overflow that is spent on a tech that at least 1 civ you have met knows will be multiplied.
If you don't wish to use the exploit always have a future tech selected(say plastics) when you bulb, if you do wait until you have no techs selected then bulb and watch your overflow very quickly exceed the original bulb.

 

[Pengui6668]

How do you "line up" a tech? Is there an actual selection for your next tech or is it a process of making sure there's only one choice after your current tech for the extra beakers to go into?

 

[Browd]

When you are in the tech tree, select your desired next tech, and then shift+click subsequent techs to create a tech queue.