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Water Improvement "Fishing Nets" [ACCEPTED]

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by raystuttgart, Jan 22, 2020.

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Should Water Improvement "Fishing Nets" be implemented?

  1. Yes, I like that idea.

    80.0%
  2. No, I do not like that ida.

    20.0%
  1. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    While I have not been playing Civ4BTS for quite some time, I think I still remember that it has an "Improvement Fishing Nets".
    Thus I was wondering if we could integrate them in Civ4Col as well - which should be really little effort.

    It should be pretty easy to adapt the graphics for Civ4Col.
    Or if somebody volunteers to do new better graphics, we could of course use those.

    The logic in DLL and XML setup should be a piece of cake as well.
    (A bit of adjustment for AI considering "Unit_AI_WORKER_SEA" would be needed as well - still easy though.)

    Feature Concept:
    • Fishing Boats (as only Water Unit) could build Fishing Nets
    • Animations of Fishing Boat building the Nets would be the same as for Fishing for Fishing Boat.
    • Fishing Nets could only be built inside of Cultural Borders (like all other Yield Improvements)
    • Fishing Nets could only be built on Water Bonus Ressources giving Food (e.g. Fish or Crabs)
    • Fishing Nets would gold cost and time about as much as a Farm
    • Fishing Nets would grant a small additional Food Bonus for the Bonus Ressource (e.g +2 or only +1)
    • Fishing Nets do not need to use "Growing Improvements" feature - but could of course if we had graphics
    Pros:
    • easy to do (considering effort, risk and teaching AI)
    • could be useful for future mod-mods to be able to build "Water Improvements"
    • would add a bit of flavour
    Getting Food from Fishing (Fishers in Cities) would be a bit easier than it is now but on the other hand you would need to invest money and time for that.
    (Acquire Fishing Boat, Pay the Gold for Improvement, Spend the time of your Fishing Boat building it.)

    Since it would be allowed (by XML configuration) only for Bonus Ressources it should not be overpowered though.
    If necessary for balancing we could reduce other Bonusses (e.g. Food Bonus of Water Bonus Ressources themselves) a bit.

    It is not a big game changer but it is also pretty simple and clean. :dunno:
    (I simply like to have a bit more invest for getting rewards in a game.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  2. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    I was waiting for this one :p Water plots are already fairly boring and need something. I have some ideas on my own on how to further spruce thing up.
    Many civ4 mods already have water improvements that don't require bonuses called aquaculture, fisheries etc)

    Perhaps we should consider something for the pearl \ walrus bonuses as well ?

    The unused AI code for water workers that we inherited from BTS is still in WTP!
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Cool. :)

    Like what? :)

    Well yes, but it needs to fit "Colonial New World theme" of WTP. :dunno:

    Edit:
    I also do not want to make this change overpowered and thus negatively impact balancing too much.
    Thus I would really like to limit it on Bonus Ressourses on Water only.
    (In XML configuration for those Improvements)

    For "Pearls" we might come up with something. :think:

    But I simply cannot imagine any improvement that could make sense for the other Water Ressources currently. :dunno:
    (We need to consider "authenticity" and "immersion".)

    But well, I am open for suggestions. :thumbsup:
    (As long as it fits the theme.)

    As I said, implementation in DLL and configuration in XML should be a piece of cake.:thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  4. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    GO FOR IT. Always wanted to see it and I doubt anyone will hate it.
    Only on food specials (definitely, wouldn't want to see them on every water square)
    Cost like a farm. (fair enough)
    Require a unit to create (great, and could even tie it to proposed tech tree, but could be done without it)
    Something for pearls (yeah, it's always a shame that you can improve a gold source but not pearls)

    Just my two cents. I like the concept so much that I'd be willing to go along with any way you decide to implement it.
    Keep up the good work.
     
  5. Drunk-Monk

    Drunk-Monk Chieftain

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    I voted no, as I don't really understand the need for this, as it didn't exist in the time period. The workboat makes sense in Civ 4, because the game is more largescale and abstracted, its the same principal as building a mine or quarry, in this game that's not the case. We already have several Professions (Fisherman, Pearlhunter) and Units (Fishingboat and Whaling-boat) dedicated for this purpose. Also aquaculture, as in permanent fishing grounds, were only really used by the natives, with the exception of oyster harvesting. Large scale commercial aquaculture is a 20th century innovation. There were temporary onshore fishing and whaling settlements, but as we don't have a concept of decay in the mod, so there is no need to implement these.

    Innovations and improvement to fishing and whaling, I think would be best handled by a tech tree.
     
  6. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    There is no "big need" for this. The game could do without - but it could do without most other ideas as well. :)
    I suggested it simply because I like the idea and think that others might as well.

    It is simply so easy to do and really does not contradict autenticity that I was wondering why we don't already have it.
    It is no big big game changer, since the Improvement bonus is tiny and it is only allowed to build it on "Water Food Bonus Ressources".

    Currently I talk about nothing else than "Fisher Nets" - and maybe an equivalent for "Pearls".
    (Of course potential mod-mods could do much more with it.)

    That is not correct as far as I know. :think:
    Fishermen did have small stationary fisher nets on the coast.
    (Both in Old World and New World.)

    It already exists in WTP (already RaR) as well, it is the "Fisher Boat".
    All we need to do is activate the code that is already there and configure the "Build Fisher Net" Action for it.

    True but we have Professions and Improvements for almost all Plot Professions.
    With Fishing we do have Professions and no Improvements. But we have Buildings instead (Landing Stage and Upgrade) of course.

    And I am aware that we have those Buildings as well and I will consider this in balancing. :thumbsup:

    Fisher Boats (unlike Profession "Fishermen" in City) could mostly not use "Fisher Nets" - just build them - since they can work only outside City Radius.
    (The Improvement needs to be built in Cultural Borders.)

    Only if the Cultural Borders expand beyond City Radius there might be a chance, that a Fisher Boats could build Fisher Nets on a
    Water Food Bonus Ressource that is outside of City Radius and then also profit from the Improvement Bonus.

    I was never talking about "Large scale commercial acquculture". ;)
    Just about small "Fisher Nets" in City Radius.

    I don't mind at all to unlock "Fisher Nets" once we have Techs. :thumbsup:
    But to do this, we need to build "Fisher Nets" first.

    ----------

    Summary:

    This is just a small tiny new Improvement to give the Player a little bit more todo.
    It is nothing game breaking and I can also live without if community really hates it.

    The change is so easy that we can probably implement and test it in less than a day.
    And it also has potential to be expanded (if not in WTP, then maybe in mod-mods).
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  7. Drunk-Monk

    Drunk-Monk Chieftain

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    I am not disputing that European Fishermen had stationary nets (Lobster Pots, Oyster Beds etc) we already have the fishing boat spend several turns 'harvesting'. However this is a different matter, they did not build permanent infrastructure for fishing in the ocean unlike the Haida people of the Northern Pacific coast, or the Native Hawaiians.

    It's already implemented in game thorough the Pier and Dock buildings. To extend your proposal to other units, would require the Hunter to build traps, the Rancher to build fences, The Priest to erect crosses etc. During war time your opponents would be attacking your nets :crazyeye:. Improvements represent infrastructure like Mines, Plantations, Roads etc, this type of infrastructure was not built at sea by Europeans during the colonial period.

    All the other improvements represent large scale commercial development, thus making this one improvement inconsistent and ahistroic.

    In a mod set in the 20th century or the future it would have a place, but during this period it doesn't. Why not implement an improvement to the fishing/whaling boat that allows it to harvest faster? This would be internally consistent.
     
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  8. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Well, nothing is decided right now anyways. :thumbsup:

    I agree there is no big need - but there is also no problem I see either. :dunno:
    This feature is also so tiny that it is not worth arguing about.

    Let us see how it turns out in a week when we have more votes.
    I can also do almost all of the work alone and might only ask for some code review or testing - so I will not distract the other guys much.
     
  9. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

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    Fishing nets seems a decent addition to me.

    I think improvements for other sea resources is a non-starter. Pearl production being manually dived for shouldn't be scaled up, and pearl farms are not applicable. Walrus doesn't make sense either due to limited numbers in the wild - only a few can make a living hunting them for it to be sustainable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  10. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

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    I agree with everything drunk monk has to say on this.

    I really love the whaling ship/fishing boat mechanic. I think a fish improvement detracts from that. But I wouldn’t lose sleep over it.

    For a more radical suggestion: using the whaling boat mechanic on trappers. Let them wander the wilderness and bring back furs. More accurate than trapping one spot of beaver for 200 years right next to a major city. I think it would be fun and unique.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  11. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    This is a really great idea. I love that! And it is historically more correct.

    Fisher nets could unlock the food bonus for fishermen (early tech) on the water fields if there exists a tech tree. I'm not sure if we really need a further improvement to be built on that city fields...
     
  12. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    We like it too, that is why it was implemented. :)
    It just gives Fishing Boats another small "job" additionally:
    Building Fisher Nets on Food Bonus Ressources in City Radius only, that gives a tiny Yield increase (for Fishing Jobs in City).

    Nothing considering the Whaling/Fishing feature of Whaling Boats/Fishing Boats itself will change.
    It will not distract much of that either, it will just adds another reason to build Fishing Boats.
    (Which will still be useful for "High Sea Fishing".)

    A good mod - to my opinion - also has to have small nice details - to give players a bit to discover in game and to have more choices.
    It is not necessarily all about the big features / overhauls only.
    Me neither. :dunno:
    I also won't loos sleep if community and team do not want it.
    Please create new threads to discuss such new feature concept suggestions. :thumbsup:
     
  13. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    I think that sounds like a nice addition :) In case it helps, I should note that I'd worked on some similar stuff for the old 2071 mod and I did run into some problems with vanilla worker unitAI not doing anything with Improvements/Features/Builds on water terrains, though I hope that might be fixable.

    In that mod, water terrains are Deep Space terrain which of course need to get some nice spacey Features and Improvements :scan::king: I made Bonus tiles for certain types of moons that could be discovered (such as Verdant Moon, Volcanic Moon, etc), and players could invest in a Colony Ship unit able to build a Lunar Outpost improvement on these moons, which would eventually evolve into a productive Lunar Settlement after enough turns working the tile :borg:. That worked perfectly for human players and I felt it could have been really interesting (I also had deep space Features such as Asteroid Belt which could be cleared by Mining Vessel naval units to gain mineral yields, and atmospheric Features for moons such as Toxic Atmosphere, which modified their yields and could later be cleared by advanced terraforming techs.)

    Unfortunately although these all worked fine for humans, I found that AI naval units with either UNITAI_WORKER or UNITAI_SEA_WORKER never did anything at all re available Features/Improvements on sea tiles and just sat in port :( I assume Firaxis never activated standard UnitAI worker behavior for naval units but couldn't figure out a solution due to my limited C++/DLL knowledge, but if the standard UnitAI from Civ4 worker boats can be reactivated I'd hope that might enable sea Features and Improvements to become possible again for modding. :cool:
     
  14. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    We are aware, that this feature might also help potential mod-mod projects for the future. :thumbsup:
    It would indeed be great if some potential mod-mod projects (e.g. Total Conversions) would draw more modders to help us improve WTP - which we believe could be the common platform.

    For the specific Use-Case I suggested it should be comparably easy.
    (After all it is limted on Food-Bonus-Ressources on Water within Cultural Radius only.)

    I am even confident that I could implement (or adapt Civ4BTS) code for AI / Automization myself.
    Spoiler :

    If I would need to code AI / Automation (without finding CIV4BTS code to adapt) for this:
    • It would simply be the highest Priority for Fishing Boats of AI to "Build Fishing Nets" first - if "Food Bonus Ressourse on Water in Cultural Radius + money is available" - then continue normal "High Sea Fishing".
    • For Human Player I would simply have an additional Button "Build Fishing Nets" so automated Fishing Boats of Human Player would always just do "High Sea Fishing" if not explicitly told to build "Fishing Nets".

    But of course devolution knows AI-coding much better than me and can give you more competent answers to that. :thumbsup:
    Together in the team we should not have big problems or unreasonable effort to adapt code of Civ4BTS for this or even code it ourselves. :grouphug:
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  15. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    So ok, it seems that this one is accepted as well. :)

    I consider it a candidate for Release 2.8.
    (It is not that much effort to do and has little risk.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  16. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Good, and the sending out trapper concept really resonated with me too.
     
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