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Water instead of Food

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Dune Wars' started by Deliverator, Jun 28, 2009.

  1. Deliverator

    Deliverator Graphical Hackificator

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    I really like the idea of replacing Food with Water. It seems to make perfect sense for a Dune mod. So instead of Food, Water provides population growth and be necessary to sustain the population. Instead of Granaries you could have Reservoirs, and windtraps can now yield Water. I think this change would really help model life on Arrakis.

    I have done a little graphical test. The water drop icon needs some improvement - darker edge, etc - and I still have a few more bread icons to hunt down, but you get the general idea.







    Apparently this has been discussed before so if there are points made in prior posts we can link them in.

    So what are people's views?
     
  2. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Retired Moderator

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    Graphical it looks very good and fitting :goodjob:.
     
  3. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    looks nice buddy - but - wont it contradict the water resource and fresh water?
     
  4. Deliverator

    Deliverator Graphical Hackificator

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    So let's try and list some pros and cons of the idea:

    Pros
    1. Allows us to model water-rich and water-poor areas in a simple and natural way. (Cephalo is working on an Arrakis mapscript where the central regions are more water rich.)
    2. Thematically, it helps communicate the importance of water on Dune.

    Cons
    1. Will require existing water resource/mechanics to be updated to produce more water (aka food).
     
  5. cephalo

    cephalo Chieftain

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    I think it makes perfect sense. I find these pros much weightier than the item in the con.
     
  6. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    well...i go with the flow people...

    whatever you think is right is fine with me...


    i cant wait to get to the weekend so i can have a stable version for you guys to work on.
     
  7. deadliver

    deadliver Loud Mouth Amateur

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    I really like this idea! Clever.
     
  8. davidlallen

    davidlallen Chieftain

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    If we can work this out, it will definitely fit the dune theme. But so far the idea seems "narrow" to me. If we remove the idea of growing things that produce food, we also have to remove the related concept of growing things with a health or happiness bonus. Then, the only bonuses on the map will be mineral ones. What would produce water besides a windtrap? That is one improvement. All the other ones related to growing need to be removed.

    What map bonuses will produce water, what improvements will be related to water? If we cannot come up with a list almost as long as the list of food related bonuses and improvements in vanilla, the amount of decision-making will be greatly reduced.

    BTW, as most people know there were at least two or three other threads about a Dune game which never got as far as releasing something. I have read over those in the past (not recently). I recall that all of them mentioned this idea, but nobody ever proposed a system which would replace food completely. It is possible that researching those threads may find something.

    Another approach, rather than replacing food with water, may be to make the effects of water more severe. I may have made this worse in 1.1.4/1.2 rather than better, by removing the irrigation bonus of drip farms. Maybe instead, we could make this stronger, and set up the soil enricher, complex, drip farm, growth facility and greenhouse so that they *only* give bonuses if they have fresh water. In vanilla you can put a farm on a corn even if there is no fresh water, and get the health bonus. Maybe we can prevent that unless there is irrigation. We might need an improvement which is cheap, and *only* carries irrigation.
     
  9. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Agree with david here.

    You could also increase the base level of unhealth, and increase the level of health provided to a city by having fresh water access, so cities are really not going to grow much unless they have fresh water.
     
  10. koma13

    koma13 Chieftain

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    I want to have water instead of food too. :cry: :)

    We could finally make an immigration mod, removing the need of growth by water/food (or at least make it less important). Health could be managed by buildings. I also would not have a problem with reducing amount of bonus types, Arrakis is no Garden of Eden after all.

    And if we really add this water concept I promise to make a nice cistern graphic inside city screen that fills up with water showing growth progress (instead of having that boring stack bar). :)
     
  11. Deliverator

    Deliverator Graphical Hackificator

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    This is a good objection, but I think with some imagination it may well be possible to come up with the necessary list of water producing bonuses and improvements. And I see no reason why we can't have water producing bonuses also adding health or happiness.

    The Fremen make use of anything that contains water, even retrieving water from the bodies of their dead, it is fair to assume that any water containing plants such as cacti would be similarly exploited.

    Also, I think we could use the mysticism of Dune as an excuse to have a variety of different water producing springs that also have magical qualities (health and happiness). So the bonuses could be different sorts of water spring-shrines almost.

    Even if we fail, it would be fun to try and come up with a list of water bonuses and improvements. It just needs us to get into different mindset...

    I am not dead opposed to the current system, but there is a lack of transparency with it. It is something that could be tricky for newcomers perhaps.
     
  12. davidlallen

    davidlallen Chieftain

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    With a little juggling of the improvementinfos and bonusinfos file, it may be possible to make fresh water a much stronger requirement. There is an optional improvement field IrrigatedYieldChange. We could set the actual food benefit of the bonus and the improvement to zero, make the improvement only buildable on bonuses, and give it a large IrrigatedYieldChange.

    If you consider a plot with a food bonus which is 2 squares away from your city, you would have to go through several steps to realize the increased yield. First, you need a windtrap on a hill or a city windtrap; second, you need to conduct the fresh water to the plot. This would probably require a new improvement whose only function is to carry irrigation.

    We could construct this system. It is possible the AI could recognize the second step of building the irrigation improvement. I know that with the current windtrap implementation, the AI does not recognize that windtraps provide fresh water. The AI builds windtraps today because the improvement has a high food value and the building has a high AIWeight. So the AI builds it without really knowing why.

    A clever player would search out food bonus plots with a hill nearby, to put a windtrap on the hill without requiring additional irrigation. The AI would never realize that.

    As always, one challenge of designing any system is to make sure the AI has a reasonable chance of using it, or fake the AI into using it with AIWeight or other bonuses. Changing the core AI algorithm to actually consider this stuff requires a lot more understanding of the existing AI code.
     
  13. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    This would basically mean that cities can only be constructed around bonus food resources. Is that really what you want?
    I'd tend towards being able to still get +1 food with improvements and fresh water access.

    If you wanted to do it how you describe though, change the improvements from being drip irrigation farms and soil enrichment, and make them irrigation pipeline and use modified road/magtube graphics.
     
  14. Deliverator

    Deliverator Graphical Hackificator

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    The AI might be another good reason to simplify things.

    Since the water-for-food idea seems to have some support, I think it is at least worth exploring. We can try to make bonuses, improvements and fresh water/irrigation all work sensibly within the idea.
     
  15. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    I'm throwing in a "Ditto" - I love mods most when they put an flavourful spin on main Civ concepts without changing gameplay too much. Water for food fits this criterion. It's still intuitive, but is an unique take on it, helping you to distinguish it from main Civ more (Spice does that as well, but it's more of an extra layer of stuff instead of "nice, elegant, own spin").

    Cheers, LT.
     
  16. TC01

    TC01 Chieftain

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    I agree, I like when mods change things like this to make them more "unique."

    What about doing something like in Mars, Now, where water is required to build cities?
     
  17. Deliverator

    Deliverator Graphical Hackificator

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    This seems to be the key objection so here's my best stab at fleshing out the proposal.

    Here's the list of food bonuses, improvements and buildings from vanilla:
    Spoiler :
    Food Resources

    Banana: +1 food
    Improvement: Plantation (+2 food, +1 health)

    Clam: +1 food
    Improvement: Fishing Boats (+2 food, +1 health)

    Corn: +1 food
    Improvement: Farm (+2 food, +1 health)

    Cow: +1 food
    Improvement: Pasture (+1 food, +2 hammers, +1 health)

    Crab: +1 food
    Improvement: Fishing Boats (+2 food, +1 health)

    Deer: +1 food
    Improvement: Camp (+2 food, +1 health)

    Fish: +1 food
    Improvement: Fishing Boats (+3 food, +1 health)

    Pig: +1 food
    Improvement: Pasture (+3 food, +1 health)

    Rice: +1 food
    Improvement: Farm (+1 food, +1 health)

    Sheep: +1 food
    Improvement: Pasture (+2 food, +1 commerce, +1 health)

    Wheat: +1 food
    Improvement: Farm (+2 food, +1 health)

    Luxury Resources producing Food

    Spices: +1 commerce
    Improvement: Plantation (+1 food, +2 commerce, +1 happiness)

    Sugar: +1 food
    Improvement: Plantation (+1 food, +1 commerce, +1 happiness)

    Whale: +1 food
    Improvement: Whaling Boats (+1 hammer, +2 commerce, +1 happiness)

    Wine: +1 commerce
    Improvement: Winery (+1 food, +2 commerce, +1 happiness)

    List of Improvements
    Farm
    Pasture
    Fishing Boats
    Camp
    Plantation
    Whaling Boats
    Winery

    Food Related Buildings

    Granary: Stores 50% of food after growth; +1 health from Corn, Rice, Wheat;
    Lighthouse: +1 food on water tiles;

    And here's a list I've come up with using water instead of food.
    Spoiler :
    Water Resources

    Lesser Spring: +1 water
    Improvement: Garden (+1 water , +1 health, +1 happiness)

    Spring: +1 water
    Improvement: Garden (+2 water , +1 health, +1 happiness)

    Abundant Spring: +1 water
    Improvement: Garden (+3 water , +1 health, +1 happiness)

    Underground Stream: +1 water
    Improvement: Well (+1 water, +1 health)

    Underground River: +1 water
    Improvement: Well (+2 water, +1 health)

    Underground Lake: +1 water
    Improvement: Well (+3 water, +1 health)

    Desert Grasses: +1 water
    Improvement: Dew Collectors (+1 water, +1 health)

    Desert Shrubs: +1 water
    Improvement: Dew Collectors (+2 water, +1 health)

    Atmospheric Moisture: +1 water
    Improvement: Windtrap (+2 water, +1 health)

    Luxury Resources producing Water

    Prophecy Spring: +1 water
    Improvement: Water Shrine (+1 water, +1 happiness)

    Ancient Spring: +1 water
    Improvement: Water Shrine (+1 water, +1 happiness)

    Healing Spring: +1 water
    Improvement: Water Shrine (+1 water, +1 health, +1 happiness)

    Water of Life: +1 water
    Improvement: Blessing/Transumutation (+1 water, +1 happiness)
    (Can be a requirement for certain units)

    List of Improvements
    Well
    Garden
    Windtrap
    Dew Collectors
    Water Shrine
    Blessing/Transumutation

    Water Buildings
    Catchbasin: Stores 50% of water after growth;
    Qanat Network: +1 water from all tiles

    General notes:
    1) In vanilla, you build agricultural improvements on tiles that already produce food. The idea for Dune is that you build improvements that both extract or retain more water from tiles that already produce water. So building a Garden on a Spring for example, increases water retention and therefore increase the water yield.
    2) I am leveraging the mysticism of Dune to have some water resources also providing happiness. That said I think we should make the spice have a happiness effect as well as a commercial one.
    3) Can we make all water producing bonuses also sources of fresh water, so that irrigation can be spread from them to tiles with no water? Irrigated tiles then produce +1 water. We might have to make irrigation harder/slower.
    4) I think it is OK if the list of bonuses and improvements is not quite as long as vanilla. It is sort of appropriate in a way since water is meant to be scarce. We can adjust the prevalence of resources as necessary to ensure that civs grow at a decent rate.
    5) Don't worry about representing these things graphically. I'm sure we can come up with something that looks good in each case.
     
  18. davidlallen

    davidlallen Chieftain

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    You mentioned this a while back, and I did not quite understand then either. What do you mean by immigration here? Moving population from one city to another does not seem to be what you mean. What is the mechanic for getting a new population point in your city? Spending 100 gold?

    This sounds reasonable; it is a "reskin" of bonuses, if you want. I can throw together the xml for this in the next day or two. There are no appropriate bonus graphics or improvement graphics. Since this would be highly experimental, it is probably not worth making them yet. But it means that I would use existing plant bonus graphics, and you will have to mouse-over the bonuses to see what they are. That may be OK for local experimentation.

    One minor point, I don't think "Water of Life" should come from a map improvement. At some point we should add the sandworm ecological cycle of little makers. Water of life is created by drowning a little maker, and you need it to "build" a Reverend Mother. This is probably worth a thread on its own, but I don't have a proposal to start it out with.
     
  19. Deliverator

    Deliverator Graphical Hackificator

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    The whole thing is, in effect, a reskin of the food yield as water, and more cosmetic than functional at this stage. That said, I think it could take us in some interesting directions as we play with it. Placeholder graphics are fine for now, we can make or adapt some proper stuff if we decide to take the idea forward. I can give you the water drop graphics I've done which can also be improved later.

    You're right, I was stretching a bit with that one. The Water of Life is normally poisonous so it is not really appropriate to have it yield +1 water unimproved. The worm cycle is worth a thread, but I would like to discuss Civs, Leaders and the possibility of some Dune Wars specific traits first.
     
  20. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I think the existing plant resources have way more flavor than just 10 different variations on "spring". These resources sound do-able, but not very interesting.

    Also, gardens really don't produce more water; they suck them away.
    One of the classic lines in Dune is about the townspeople looking at the date palms, and realizing that they each took up as much water as 20 men, and hoping that they would at least produce some fruit, but how this was in vain since they were out of season.
    And there is other stuff about the massive luxury of the garden in the Governor's palace, and the popular resentment of it.

    I would suggest; rather than making vanilla Food into water, make City Health into water.

    So the limits to city growth are determined by both its food supply and its water supply. I think this makes a lot of sense; even without a big local water supply, you can substitute food for water by cutting back on city growth by using what water you have for people rather than agrictulture.
    (Currently in developed countries, ~60% of water is used for agriculture, 35% for industry and only 5% by households - and most of that is for washing, and a little for cooking, not personal consumption. In developing countries I think its even higher for agriculture, and also higher for households)

    Some ideas for this:
    a) Take away the health bonuses from the various granary type buildings. Condense these buildings; there are too many of these anyway. Retool some of the other buildings that already give health so that it makes sense with them providing water. Many of them already make sense; you already have an aqueduct type building that gives a health bonus.
    Don't have too many of these; currently health isn't often a binding constraint; food is much harder to come by.
    b) Keep the current food resources, they have great flavor, but they just provide bonus tile yields (as some of them do already). You build a drip farm (or its upgrades)/soil enricher/complex on them.
    These substitute for farm/pasture/plantation.
    Drip farms and their upgrades are buildable anywhere. They provide 0 food on a normal tile, +1 with fresh water access, and a further +1 on a bonus resource.
    Soil enricher and complex are buildable only on bonus resources, and also get a bonus +1 food for fresh water access.
    c) Add in a few water resources from your list above that need to have a well or deep well built on top of them, that then provide a health resource to all your cities in the same way that rice/corn/etc. do in addition to improving tile yields.
    You could replace some of the current health buildings with things like water-sellers market that gives a bonus health from these resources.
    Deep well could be an improvement over normal wells with higher tech requirements that gives an extra tile output bonus, and/or also provides a local health bonus like forests do in vanilla.
    I like the idea you have of multiple improvements that are better than previous ones; this gives workers something to do late game by rebuilding resources, rather than instantly getting an empire-wide uprgade from discovering a tech that gives +1 food to farms like in vanilla.
    d) Have the windtrap tile improvement provide health to the nearby city in the same way that forests do +1 health per , in addition to a +2 food tile yield (improved by techs) and providing fresh water.
    e) Various factories and such create unhealth because they require water to run, or because they pollute local water supplies.
    You could also have Garden buildings that add happiness or commerce but provide negative health.
    f) Then substitute Water (and the cool water drop icon you have above) everywhere that I said health.
     

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