Ways to make protective better

[insaneweasel]

Every time I play a protective leader, I can't help but think that it's boring. It may be useful in some instances, but if you're not warring, it does basically nothing.

They should have made it an espionage trait, so that bonuses could be given to the speed at which they build the security bureau, jail, etc. Maybe throw in some free spies.

What do you think?

 

[fathertuck]

Protective and agressive leaders are most useful as warmongers, that's true. But protective leaders are also useful when going for other types of victories, like a cultural victory. Having those archers, bowmen or musketmen start with Drill1 and City Garrison1 are a huge advantage when playing defencively.

 

[obsolete]

...but if you're not warring, it does basically nothing.

Then start a war.

 

[Clam Spammer]

As is, Protective doesn't help you defend your territory at all - only your cities. IMHO this only serves to frustrate the player. Some AIs are arbitrarily much more difficult to take over, even when they are powerless to stop you sitting in their territory. But having the same ability yourself is useless since holeing up in your cities while the AI runs rampant in your territory gets you pillaged out of the game. Pillaging the AI in the same way doesn't help your cause, because there are other AIs in the game that will get ahead while you fight an ultimately unsuccessful war (even if you do eventually take some cities, they'll be underdeveloped as a result). The AI's love for cheap walls and castles (also of little use to you) only exacerbates this. As a whole, Protective just plays out poorly with the asymmetry between one human and multiple AIs.


I had an idea during the recent "protective is underrated" business, but never posted it:

Create a new line of promotions that boosts combat strength when fighting in your own territory, and give some Protective units (say archery/melee/gunpowder) the first one free. Drop the other free promos (maybe even remove City Garrison from the game altogether). This way, Protective civs have some extra bite in a defensive war, as they should, but they don't suddenly become overpowered when you reach the city walls. Plus you get some real benefit from having the trait yourself.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

aggressive doesn't help at all if you aren't warring.

protective gives you 1/2 price castles, which aren't worth much if you go economics, but if you ignore them, they are one of the best improvements in the game - trade route, culture and espionage...

 

[plasmacannon]

What archer types need is to be able to show collateral damage to a number of enemy units, based on the number of attacking archer units using their first strike in the attack.
This would "soften up" the incomming melee troops before they got to the archers.

For example, if 3 longbowmen, attacked 5 swordsmen, then, 3 swordsmen would have a small amount of damage done to them by the first strike.

I something similar to this done in a mod. That one with the Ice god and you have to combine a sword, I forget the name. You fight spiders and frostlings.
Anyway, it made since there, so, someone thought of something similar, just didn't include it in the main game. This would be for Archer types, in general.

Protective should grant combat1 and Drill1 to all archer units, including chariot archers and Horse Archers, instead of city defense.
This would be more realistic as chariots did ram into melee units, they would attack from range and maneuver out of range of melee units with speed getting off several arrow shots.

 

[Casi]

I think that siege weapons (cata, treb, cannon etc) destroy the usefulness of protective, as the best counter is almost always to attack a dangerous stack that comes towards you with those weapons yourself, instead of waiting that it knocks on your door...

for that reason other traits will always be more useful, as neither agressive or protective gives a bonus to the really important units like catas or cavalry.
It's not balanced, sadly.

 

[plasmacannon]

I think that siege weapons (cata, treb, cannon etc) destroy the usefulness of protective, as the best counter is almost always to attack a dangerous stack that comes towards you with those weapons yourself, instead of waiting that it knocks on your door...

for that reason other traits will always be more useful, as neither agressive or protective gives a bonus to the really important units like catas or cavalry.
It's not balanced, sadly.

CHA, Spain's Citadels, an IMP leader's GGs Mongolian Ger for their HAs, or Korean Hwatchas are really the only ways to improve those units.

None of those overlap except when using "Unrestricted Leaders".

 

[obsolete]

As is, Protective doesn't help you defend your territory at all - only your cities.

Half the promotion trait is independent of terrain or cities.

 

[Clam Spammer]

CHA, Spain's Citadels, an IMP leader's GGs Mongolian Ger for their HAs, or Korean Hwatchas are really the only ways to improve those units.

None of those overlap except when using "Unrestricted Leaders".

Genghis Khan is IMP... or am I reading this wrong?

Half the promotion trait is independent of terrain or cities.

As mentioned, destroying incoming stacks is all about collateral initiative. Sure, your drill-promoted troops can take out weakened units without taking a scratch, but you still need to wait for the siege to heal before launching a counterattack. Access to counter-promotions is similarly useless unless the enemy sends individual units into your land.

 

[Paw]

aggressive doesn't help at all if you aren't warring.

protective gives you 1/2 price castles, which aren't worth much if you go economics, but if you ignore them, they are one of the best improvements in the game - trade route, culture and espionage...

half priced barracks, if you are zulu, the barracks gives you 20% reduced maintenance cost. very specific, but helps outside of warring

 

[fdgsgds]

Perhaps protective leaders should receive a 10% combat bonus inside their own borders. Or maybe, something more unique, making fortify a maximum of 40%. Siege easily takes care of cities, but fortify cannot be bombarded down.

 

[Jerrymander]

You could make Protective better by removing all the other traits.

 

[obsolete]

The last time a thread was started just like this, it did nothing but a lot of damage, and lead to the broken OF bug.

So lets just stop it now.

 

[Earthling]

All units and especially offensive and siege lines should cost significantly more in upkeep and adjusted build costs as needed, so "standing armies" aren't quite so common.

Units like archers, spearmen, and gunpowder infantry troops (possibly could introduce weaker/militia versions of industrial and gunpowder units) should be easier/cheaper to keep around, and protective should give promotions on these - as, well, it mostly already does. The wall/castle building bonus along with that wouldn't be bad, I wouldn't add anything else new. So whatever the new upkeep system, protective would give reasonable and clear benefits to that.

Doesn't take too much away from agg or charasmatic either I would think, they both still fit their niches quite well (and especially so if we could then open up stronger promo lines earlier for elite troops. If you're paying more in upkeep to have those swordsmen it wouldn't be too bad if they could get some better promos, march, commando etc... earlier and anything new that works, and agg/chm would certainly help with that).

I think that would mostly settle things and not cause overall headaches for the player or AI. As it stands, protective is awfully annoying - pretty useless to a player but frustrating to see in an AI overprone to spamming city-garrison-promo'd units everywhere (and never in a way that's actually a threat or helps those AI win the game, just a nuisance)

 

[plasmacannon]

"Originally Posted by plasmacannon
CHA, Spain's Citadels, an IMP leader's GGs, Mongolian Ger for their HAs, or Korean Hwatchas are really the only ways to improve those units.
None of those overlap except when using "Unrestricted Leaders".

Genghis Khan is IMP... or am I reading this wrong?

No, you read that right. I missed him.
Yet, he did not rank high on the polls for either of his traits.
The main argument was for seige, but, he did mention calvary, which would apply to GK.
I voted for him too on the AGG poll.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

They should have made it an espionage trait, so that bonuses could be given to the speed at which they build the security bureau, jail, etc.

What do you think?

I think that it's a neat idea that has merit. Perhaps not ALL of the Espionage Buildings, but a discount on one or two such buildings isn't totally out of line with several other Leader Traits.

Then again, that would just give even more incentive to Sitting Bull to infinitely Poison your Cities' Water Supplies...


The "free Spies" idea I think is a bit too far off of the beaten path for the regular game, since no other Leader Trait provides "free units," such as "2 Free Axemen for Aggressive Civs." That said, it wouldn't hurt to explore such a concept in a Mod. Perhaps it could be designed such that each Trait could give relevant units to you at a certain point in the game. You'd be giving free Spies to the AIs, too, though, so beware what you ask for!

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Since Civ5 is coming out in a week or so, there's very little point to talk about improving that trait, but personally I'd make this tweak as followed if given the time/opportunity:

Protective:
- All military units get Drill II
- 1/2 hammer cost for intelligence agencies, jails, and security bureaus

 

[Derakon]

All military units getting Drill II would be pretty amazing. That'd mean they'd only be two promotions away from Drill IV, which is, what, 6 first strikes? Your armies could walk all over the enemy without ever getting hurt by anything beyond siege (and they'd take 40% less collateral damage too).

How about giving Protective civs +50% attack when attacking territory where their culture is dominant? So taking your stack into the enemy's territory would be chancy, but only if they muster a force to attack it -- they don't get any benefits if they hide away in their cities.

Also, I doubt Civ IV will stop being played as soon as Civ V comes out.

 

[Framesticker]

If you're Financial, you lay down a Cottage. If you're Protective, you draft Riflemen and take that Financial bully's land from him.