WC 2006: Group E

[Marla_Singer]

As for those criticizing Eyrei, he does know a lot more about footie than you can expect from the average American. I've seen many people being harsh towards Americans who were pissed to the referees. Well, I haven't seen the game so I can't tell, the only thing I'd ask you is to understand that it should have been a tough time for them to see their team being reduced to 9 players. And even if those red cards were deserved, the intensity of the game was apparently very important and US players were angry after having seen McBride in blood. All this to say that it was a game of high tensions from both sides.

There's no need to get into insults about Americans mixing up footie and US football. Try to imagine what they've felt on yesterday and to understand it. And even if I don't doubt those red cards were deserved, I can understand that as a viewer cheering for the US team, that game could be painful to watch.

Peace everyone.

That surely was even more exciting than the match.

I had a good time actually. Thanks !

 

[kryszcztov]

As for those criticizing Eyrei, he does know a lot more about footie than you can expect from the average American.

I didn't make any reference to American football myself, but rather to soccer. It seems football (the real one) and soccer are 2 different sports. That quote from an American dude (who is it anyway ?), calling for hidden fouls so as to win, is just plain ugly. Didn't he see the Fair Play flag ?

I've seen many people being harsh towards Americans who were pissed to the referees. Well, I haven't seen the game so I can't tell, the only thing I'd ask you is to understand that it should have been a tough time for them to see their team being reduced to 9 players. And even if those red cards were deserved, the intensity of the game was apparently very important and US players were angry after having seen McBride in blood. All this to say that it was a game of high tensions from both sides.

Sure I can understand. Especially with that blood on his face. But that's part of the game. Did we deserve those 3 red cards we got in 1998 ? I personally think only the 3rd one (Desailly during the final, getting 2 yellow cards) was deserved.

There's no need to get into insults about mixing up footie and US football. Try to imagine what they've felt on yesterday and to understand it. And even if I don't doubt those red cards were deserved, I can understand that as a viewer cheering for the US team, that game could be painful to watch.

Yes, let's not get into insults. Though I think that a neutral point of view is best for such debates.

 

[Primula Foxburr]

I didn't like the match ITALY-USA at all. IMO absolutely the worst match. I think the ref was almost always right (except for some arguable offsides). The red cards were justified, above all that of De Rossi, whose foul disgusted me. There've been bad fouls by both parts but I think the spirit USA faced the game was too trained for war! It seemed a pitched battle with a coming and going of stretchers and injured people...an horrible show to see.
As for diving, to be honest, I think that from the beginning of the cup Italy has not given any reason to complain. Yesterday I didn't see any diving but maybe I'm wrong even if it seems to me that it's by now a sort of common place about Italy, like that of "catenaccio", mentioned by the Spanish press even about the match with Ghana.

 

[eyrei]

I didn't make any reference to American football myself, but rather to soccer. It seems football (the real one) and soccer are 2 different sports. That quote from an American dude (who is it anyway ?), calling for hidden fouls so as to win, is just plain ugly. Didn't he see the Fair Play flag ?

We use a different word, but the rules are the same, and the game is identical. If it will keep your minds focused on the discussion rather than your misconceptions and arrogance, I'll use football instead.

Again, I ask what is the difference between Eddie Johnson calling for hidden fouls and European and South American players diving at the slightest hint of contact in order to fool the referee? The Italians did a great deal of this yesterday, and it worked wonderfully in convincing the referee that the game was much rougher than it was. The two-legged tackle did contact the ball, was not even very hard, and deserved at most a yellow, but the referee was convinced that the game was out of hand because men in blue jerseys were flying all over the place as if they had been hit by cars.

 

[kryszcztov]

We use a different word, but the rules are the same, and the game is identical. If it will keep your minds focused on the discussion rather than your misconceptions and arrogance, I'll use football instead.

Man, I know that it's sometimes difficult to find out, but here I was quite ironical. Of course it's the exact same game, football or soccer. I was fooling around with what you said about soccer in the US (with European/FIFA refereeing, there would be so many red cards in each game). But maybe it's not that ironical. Since refereeing is so important in football, differences in that can give the impression that it's another game. Not ? Anyway, that's no reason to get annoyed.

Again, I ask what is the difference between Eddie Johnson calling for hidden fouls and European and South American players diving at the slightest hint of contact in order to fool the referee? The Italians did a great deal of this yesterday, and it worked wonderfully in convincing the referee that the game was much rougher than it was. The two-legged tackle did contact the ball, was not even very hard, and deserved at most a yellow, but the referee was convinced that the game was out of hand because men in blue jerseys were flying all over the place as if they had been hit by cars.

I won't talk about yesterday's match, as I didn't follow it correctly. But in general, you're right, South American and South European players know how to dive. That's what I said too. The thing is, though both are cheating, violent behaviour can hurt people, physically speaking. And mind you, in England the game is tough too.

 

[eyrei]

Man, I know that it's sometimes difficult to find out, but here I was quite ironical. Of course it's the exact same game, football or soccer. I was fooling around with what you said about soccer in the US (with European/FIFA refereeing, there would be so many red cards in each game). But maybe it's not that ironical. Since refereeing is so important in football, differences in that can give the impression that it's another game. Not ? Anyway, that's no reason to get annoyed.

I wasn't referring to football matches in the US, but to matches so far in this World Cup. To be honest, I rarely watch MLS games, but I do believe they use FIFA rules.

I won't talk about yesterday's match, as I didn't follow it correctly. But in general, you're right, South American and South European players know how to dive. That's what I said too. The thing is, though both are cheating, violent behaviour can hurt people, physically speaking. And mind you, in England the game is tough too.

There is always a risk of injury in sports where there is contact. Ejections have always been reserved for those who consistently break the rules, and/or make a vicious tackle with the intention of hurting someone. This is the reason we have the possibility of a yellow card to tell the player to cease such actions. People do not watch sport to witness the awe-inspiring power of the referees to kick out anyone who displeases them.

To be honest, it is really hard to feel bad for a team getting roughed up when they were going to fall down and moan in pain for 30 seconds regardless of how hard they were hit. This behavior is so prevalent it causes a great deal of frustration, and, in my opinion has a much greater impact on the spirit of the game than the occasional hard tackle. I'd be curious to see how many Italian players are actually injured today after the abundance of stretchers that were brought on the field.

 

[Syntherio]

Huhu, eyrei? A two-legged tackle hitting the player always deserves a red card. It doesn´t matter if he hits the ball or not - this is Red. His intention was to harm the other player, otherwise he would have used one leg.

I am not aware of any divings by the Italians yesterday, but I´ve seen them doing a lot in other games, so I suppose youre right. But there is a large difference between fooling the referee and hurting the opponent.

Sadly, the referees are linked up with their assistants. I think the 23rd man did a great job, but the linesmen could be better.

Nevertheless I think the USA can reach the next round with a performance as good as yesterday, because Ghana didn´t play that good - they just had an incredible harmless opponent, imo.

 

[AceChilla]

Sadly, the referees are linked up with their assistants. I think the 23rd man did a great job, but the linesmen could be better.

In this game the ref could be called the 20th man

Ussually when both teams are complaining about the ref, it either means he was really bad, or really good. My opinion is the latter.

 

[eyrei]

Huhu, eyrei? A two-legged tackle hitting the player always deserves a red card. It doesn´t matter if he hits the ball or not - this is Red. His intention was to harm the other player, otherwise he would have used one leg.

I am not aware of any divings by the Italians yesterday, but I´ve seen them doing a lot in other games, so I suppose youre right. But there is a large difference between fooling the referee and hurting the opponent.

Sadly, the referees are linked up with their assistants. I think the 23rd man did a great job, but the linesmen could be better.

Nevertheless I think the USA can reach the next round with a performance as good as yesterday, because Ghana didn´t play that good - they just had an incredible harmless opponent, imo.

Just because a tackle is made with both legs does not say that the player was intentionally trying to injure his opponent. A tackle with both legs can be quite harmless, and that rule is a guideline for the referees. I believe that rule was instituted to stop what we call 'scissors' tackles, where the second leg is brought up after the first hit the ball to make sure the player goes down. This tackle was very, very far removed from such a tackle, with little chance of hurting anyone. I am quite certain that the presence of a second leg in the form does nothing unless it is used to kick the other player, which was not the case here. The referee had to make a judgement call, not enforce some definitive rule, and he made the wrong one in this case.

 

[FredLC]

Yeah, I disagree with eyrey, too.

Thing is, these sliding tackos are too dangerous. The sole of the two feet, turned into a spike trap due to the football shoes, means a great danger of hitting the opponent's ankle, or knee, and if it happens to do so when the feet is locked at ground, this can mean a broken leg AND the end of someone's career.

FIFA didn't say that one can't slide at the field... but it did, this year, specifically warned that using this tool to dispute challenged balls is to be done at your own peril, because it does not even have to hit - it suffices to be perillous and careless, and a red card is deserved.

As i said before, it's not the referee's fault that players haven't listened.

Oh, and btw, the strenght and angle of that tackle would make it a canditate for a red card even before FIFA has decreased it's tolerance for that kind of play.

Regards .

 

[kryszcztov]

I wasn't referring to football matches in the US, but to matches so far in this World Cup. To be honest, I rarely watch MLS games, but I do believe they use FIFA rules.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm referring to the refereeing. OK, joke apart, I was talking about what you said earlier :

I am quite aware of the rules, and have seen and played in many, many soccer games. From the time I was 7 until I was 19 I played for 2-3 teams at a time. If that rule were enforced strictly, slide tackling would be completely illegal in all but a few circumstances, and most games so far would have ended with about 7 players to a side.

I thought you were talking about how soccer games are held in the US. It seems you're implying that, if all the WC matches had been held like the lattest one (Italy-USA), there would have been many red cards. If so, sorry for the misunderstanding. The fact that you were talking about your experience confused my head. But to that point : are matches in the MLS tougher than in the WC ? Would such a foul (the 1st US red card) also lead to a red card in the US ? That's what I'm interested in, now.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I was working, so I couldn't see this game. One guy who was working with me kept sneaking away to catch the game next door (he was an all-state soccer player and was born in Paris, so he definately was more interested than me). This actually sounded like a fun game to watch, though, so its a shame I missed it.

I'm glad it was a tie (my Italian heritage makes me want to support Italy, but, since I'm an American, I have to hope the United States wins). Ideally, they'll both make it. So good luck to Italy next game and, hopefully, the US will actually score some goals and win as well.

Anyone know when the next game is?

 

[eyrei]

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm referring to the refereeing. OK, joke apart, I was talking about what you said earlier :


I thought you were talking about how soccer games are held in the US. It seems you're implying that, if all the WC matches had been held like the lattest one (Italy-USA), there would have been many red cards. If so, sorry for the misunderstanding. The fact that you were talking about your experience confused my head. But to that point : are matches in the MLS tougher than in the WC ? Would such a foul (the 1st US red card) also lead to a red card in the US ? That's what I'm interested in, now.

I don't think MLS matches are tougher than the World Cup, though the skill level is obviously lower. And yes, I was talking only about this World Cup, and saying that the standard people seem to be setting for red cards is extremely low, and if applied to every game, would result in many red cards in each game.

The two yellow cards that resulted in Eddie Pope's ejection may or may not have been given in any different game, whether in this tournament or in a US league. The second one was probably deserved, but the first was kind of silly. The red card given to Mastroeni would have been a yellow card in most games (assuming the referee saw it), but I doubt a red would have been given by many other referees. It just wasn't a hard foul.

 

[downtown]

I hate to be one of those American sport fans who whine about the refs when things dont go their way...but I'm going to anyways. De Rossi's red..okay, that was an awful foul. The first red for America, (the two legged tackle), I guess could be a red. Eddie Pope did not deserve two yellow cards though. (and why is he playing anyways? The American team is stronger without him.)

There were a few iffy offsides calls as well....but I wish the refs were more CONSISTANT. If you're going to call a "dangerous" challenge, fine. Call ALL of them, and then call all the diving the Italians were doing in the midfield....good grief, what a bunch of pansies.

I think we could have won that match, but I'm okay with a tie....we still have a decent chance to advance now

 

[Guerra y Paz]

But to that point : are matches in the MLS tougher than in the WC ? Would such a foul (the 1st US red card) also lead to a red card in the US ? That's what I'm interested in, now.

I watch MLS games and NO, that tackle would not be a Red in the MLS, probably a yellow. Add to that, the MLS American refs are the worst in the world.

But these hard tackles and fouls aren't dirty cheap shots like De Rossi's.


FYI, the two red carded players were career MLS lifers.

 

[Guerra y Paz]

And it wouldn't be a Red card in England either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111

 

[Grisu]

But these hard tackles and fouls aren't dirty cheap shots like De Rossi's.

agreed, but you can't give him more than red, at least not on the pitch.

De Rossi obviously has no idea of fairplay, he did a similar dirty foul against switzerland in the friendly

 

[Rhye]

De Rossi will be disqualified for 3 or 4 matches.
This doesn't mean that the other one isn't worth a red.


Anyway maybe it's just me, but I didn't see Italian players faking yesterday as eyrei says. Probably they were just smaller than the Americans and thus more likely to lose balance when pushed

 

[Red Door]

Then how come they required strechers, and as soon as they get to the sideline, they jump up and get back on the field?

 

[Dell19]

Because it could be a serious injury.