We’re the Hackawi...

qazxc

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Messages
83
Location
Ur and Der
OK, so you puts in your quarter and you starts your game, and there he is - your settler. You’re told he knows about mining and whatnot, but does he know where he came from?
Sure he does - Firaxis sez so: “your ancestors were nomads…” So, how come there’s dark all around; shouldn’t the settler have some sort of memory of that great trek over the mountains and across deserts that brought them to the garden spot he’s standing on?
I think Firaxis should gray out a few dark squares leading away from the settler to indicate the memory of a nomadic past, or replace the “Your ancestors were nomads…” spiel with “Your ancestors were potheads and you don’t have a clue how you got here.”

q
 
Okay, since a tile is ~250 miles across we can safely assume that nomads walking (we haven't learned riding yet) a person probably only knows a tile or so. Hunter-gatherer societies typically didn't stray that far in a lifetime.
 
And with no records of past lands a generation later passing through the same area wouldn't recognize it in the least. You just have to stretch that assumption a little bit when the game actually starts. ;)
 
warpstorm said:
Okay, since a tile is ~250 miles across we can safely assume that nomads walking (we haven't learned riding yet) a person probably only knows a tile or so. Hunter-gatherer societies typically didn't stray that far in a lifetime.

A tribe of hunter-gatherers can exhaust an area of game and other resources fast, and thus are likely to travel several hundred miles in a single generation.

Not all nomads are hunter-gatherers and not all hunter-gatherers are nomads. Some nomads are pastoralists: the Kuhi sub-tribe of the Kashkai (a confederation of tribes in Iran) for example travel about 540 miles a year.

Humans also engage in migrations for reasons as diverse as climate change or noisy neighbors. The tiny Kayi clan of the Oghuz Turks, at the conclusion of a long trek founded the Ottoman Empire.

We are not talking about a herd of donkeys with stripes, but about humans, about kids, and mommies and daddies and grandpas and grandmas, and cousins and ‘em. And, every blessed one with a memory. Else, how do you suppose a tribe’s story is transmitted, where do myths come from?

<<--S--+--1--+--2--+--3--+--4--+--~

If we consider the above << stands for the direction of travel, S for the settler’s square, 1 for the square traveled by the settler’s dad, 2 for the square crossed by the settlers grandpa, etc, allowing for 250 miles of travel per human generation, the terrain 750 miles out is well within grandpa’s direct experience and memory. In addition, if grandpa knew his grandpa then there would be stories of impassable mountains and mirror lakes, and tribes of Amazons (ey!), and the lot.

q
 
qazxc said:
A tribe of hunter-gatherers can exhaust an area of game and other resources fast, and thus are likely to travel several hundred miles in a single generation.

Not all nomads are hunter-gatherers and not all hunter-gatherers are nomads. Some nomads are pastoralists: the Kuhi sub-tribe of the Kashkai (a confederation of tribes in Iran) for example travel about 540 miles a year.

A single generation is roughly a turn in the beginning of the game. A tile is several hundred miles.

The 540 miles that the Kashgai travel is not without the aid of domesticated animals. This is not the case for the stone-age tribe that just learned about plant and animal domestication (thereby seeing the advantage to settling down, i.e. we didn't learn horseback riding yet). And it is not in a forward direction but cyclical (i.e between 2 tiles) between winter and summer pasture lands. They would only be directly familiar with 3 tiles at most. This is typical of nomadic tribes, they do not typically go "forward" but rather range within an area. (Especially in an area that has other tribes surrounding it).

Old World nomadic habits were much more sedentary (this isn't the best word, but I can't think of the right one) because by the time frame postulated by the beginning of the game the world was claimed other tribes or very dangerous. You couldn't go hundreds of miles before other tribes tried to turn you back.

On the other hand, (let's start at ~11000 BC instead of 4000BC), let's look at North America. Here we see the native American settlements expanding rapidly into open areas. These hunter-gatherers (and they nearly all were at this time frame) were travelling on foot (the Americas had no useful domesticable riding). These did fit the model you were talking about, better than your examples. Within a few centuries they killed off most of the big game (mammoths, etc.) and settled the Americas. It was fruitful, for a while. Even so, people did not typically travel thousands of miles as a tribe in a linear direction in one generation.

By the time Columbus "discovered" America, even the hunter-gatherer tribes (there were obviously settled agricultural societies by this time) had territory claimed and were quite willing to fight over it.

Your point about oral traditions is well taken, though. Maybe there should be an incorrect "map" of the area passed on from your ancestors. I remember learning about the "Old Country" from my grandma and grandpa. Huge forests, fertile grain, good beer, evil dictators, tanks, giants, trolls, all across the great ocean. Seriously, in the days before writing, oral tradition was stronger and (hopefully) better passed on to the next generations.
 
Rather than try to argue real-life topics such as miles per tile and how far nomads travel in search of food, perhaps it would be better to accept that Civilization is a game, and for gameplay purposes you can only see the immediate area around your starting position. :)
 
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