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We are winning, they fear us

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Victoria, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    Thank you @Victoria for taking the time to look into this. As for my situation, it was just as I expected. I disabled @greyTiger 's Reformation Victories mod and I was no longer getting such extreme negative modifiers so early in the game. Lesson learned by me in griping about patch issues without disabling mods.
     
    Noble Zarkon likes this.
  2. Hep Roc Heretic

    Hep Roc Heretic Chieftain

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    A simple solution? Yes. But and inelegant solution? Not so much. How else can you quantify the fear of losing?

    It's the narrow choices that are available to act on that fear that are inelegant. Until we get some diplomatic weapons (trade embargoes, government overthrow, etc) or more spying capabilities, warfare will be the Swiss Army chainsaw for cutting other civs down to size.

    BTW: Thank you, @Victoria for all of your enlightening insights.
     
  3. MIS

    MIS Prince

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    My 2c: I don't like it. Wars are already optimal for most VCs, I think it will make it even more optimal. If AI is going to come after me regardless, I might as well knock them down early in the game when the cities will be the most value.
     
  4. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Essentially not having a cap feels a bit wrong. I don't mind it in, but seems like it should be capped at a value where essentially if you have all the max positives with a civ, they still don't drop negative with you.

    Feels they could have made it more tied in directly to each VC. For domination, if there are 7 players on the map, to me it should kick in once you've gotten your 3rd capital. At that point, that tips the balance for me between "clear your local area" and "aggressive expansion". By the time you're at your 4th capital, the warmonger penalty is probably high enough anyways that it won't make a difference. Religion it might still be fine to be number of civs, because for that it tends to be the case that the last one you try to convert is the toughest.

    I'm not sure what the 50% mark for science/culture are either. For science, they should have it kick in as soon as you build a spaceport, since that's the signal you're going for space. Although even at that time, it might be too late for anyone to really do anything about it. Culture similarly would need to kick in early enough that they have time to build up the negatives.
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    @PYITE

    Is this active starting at first turn?

    Yes but you will not get 50% of a victory condition at turn 1

    Is there an independent modifier for each victory condition? If I was in first in both culture and science am I getting -1 per turn from both?
    No, as far as I can tell it is the highest % gets the modifier

    Does the leader in score also get this modifier?
    Not as far as I can tell, no... I have done 3 games but it may be so, I just have not seen it

    Does disabling victory conditions eliminate the coresponding negative modifier for the leader?
    I'll try tonight

    Oh please feel free to disagree ... we are all different and its great to have variety... most things do not have a simple one sided answer, all I'm doin is yhelping and of course I have the right for my view first :)
     
    mckinney156 and PYITE like this.
  6. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I think the other problem about #1 hatred is that it results in Mario Kart syndrome where it may be optimal to deliberately stay 2nd most of the time and once #1 has gotten screwed over, to take advantage of stuff. I mean that could be a thing, but since people have been fond of "opaque and not easily gamed" diplomacy lately, I'm not really sure how to justify that.

    Of course, increased AI hostility isn't a new thing. Civ IV had civs that disliked you if you were on top of the scoreboard but it was a fairly small modifier (though it was hidden, so bad design) Civ V AIs would covet your things. But do keep in mind that Civ VI already has leaders that hate you for being ahead (Pedro.....) and that's nothing but an annoyance.

    An easy scenario would just be to joint war against whoever's #1 once they get hated enough.


    I do understand the need for late game excitement but removing options such as diplomacy will make games more one note than they already are. The AI already has plenty of excuses for being hostile. It just doesn't know how to carry out its aggression.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  7. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    Well of course you would because that would be too difficult on your unprepared civ in war. This modifier will compound with other ones so they should take their agendas into account. If you're quietly spying then Cat Medici will likely do the same far into the victory race.
     
  8. PYITE

    PYITE Prince

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    @Victoria

    Thanks for the answers, I've got one more question please.

    What is 50% of a science victory?
     
  9. Datian

    Datian Warlord

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    It could be interesting if the AI acted accordingly.

    Close to a cultural victory ? We pump up culture
    Close to a science victory ? We send spies to disrupt spaceports.
    Etc.

    Right now, all the AI does is gnaw its teeth and mumble "we hate you we hate you so much we won't try to prevent your victory, we will just hate you more and more"
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I'll check it out tonight, I did a culture which is 50% of domestics as you would expect
     
  11. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    While that might be true, it really doesn't come into play here, I think, just because it's kind of hard to stay in 2nd. I guess alternates:

    -For domination, don't capture the capitals, but leave civs with only their capital, completely pillaged, ready for easy conquest later on.
    -For space, not really much to do here. Just try to keep the time between hitting 50% and finishing it as quick as possible.
    -For religion, I guess this means don't follow the strategy of convert all but 1 civ, and then sit back and build up your apostle army to take the last one. You basically need to sit back and take the last 3-4 civs as quickly as possible.
    -For culture, by the time you hit 50%, you should already be maxing out on culture cards, so probably no change in strategy.

    The main cases that I can see really screwing with you would be religion, where it can take a while to get the last civs converted, or if you essentially go for a domination-culture or domination-science win, where you need to be sure to capture less than 50% of the capitals before sitting back to go to space. Although again, if you've got half the capitals in the world, probably everyone already hates you, and also likely doesn't matter if they hate you even more.
     
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  12. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    A better way to prevent this problem would be to have AI that actually actively try to fight the humans in both peace and war, instead of an artificial modifier that just makes it harder to get trade deals and/or encourages them to fight you. In real history and elsewhere, weaker civs traded with stronger civs under the assumption the stronger civ wouldn't target the weaker civ. In Civ VI it works in reverse--weaker civs hate you if you are strong. I think Civ IV got this balance right--generally, the AI were competent and tough to beat even if you were on good terms with them. In Civ VI the only AI I ever fear is Kongo, who has on occasion gotten close to cultural victory. They are pretty much the only semi-competent peaceful AI, and I suspect it's due to their huge growth bonuses which help in science (among other things).

    Of course, if some people view Civ VI as purely a digital board game, the immersion breaking factor of having this artificial modifier is probably a minor problem. For others, like me, who see Civ as both a game and a historical "what if" immersion scenario, having factors like this breaks the "story" of the game with artificiality. If I wanted a good board game with opponents that attacked me when I was winning, I would play the Game of Thrones or Senji board games. When I play Civ I expect a good unfolding story in the gameplay, which can be a different thing.

    (Also, I should point out that this modifier has had little impact in actually making the AI competitive--all it really does in my experience is make AI not want to trade with me. I have not seen AI go to war with me often over this modifier. So the idea that this modifier might spur the AI to "do something interesting" points more to the underlying flaws of the existing AI than the effectiveness of this modifier at anything other than breaking immersion.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  13. mckinney156

    mckinney156 Chieftain

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    Agree with the devs trying to do something to make the AI "do something" in the face of me winning the game, since rest assured I would be going balls to the wall against the AI in the reverse situation. Don't mind their implementation of this system either. Unfortunately as has already been mentioned it seems like this just makes the AI give you worse trade deals instead of actually trying to sabotage your space port or go to war with you to cut off your trade routes in a CV.
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Do not forget to turn this around.... make sure someone has a higher % that you, say in science, and keep sabotaging, risky I guess but fun.
     
  15. Kyro

    Kyro Prince

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    Peaceful Victories shouldn't exist? If you don't put equal value on all other aspects that make up Civilization, please, Starcraft/Command and Conquer is just round the corner, don't pollute this game with warmongering bias.

    I already deserve the Cultural/Scientific Victory because I spent 200 turns flawlessly planning and preparing for it. It is rightfully mine. You are wrong to "qualify" people for Victory based on how well they defend themselves in the final stages of the game when it is the strategy and execution for the most part of the game that deserves the most credit.

    Calling violence an elegant solution to a winning opponent exposes your lack of perspective on the issue altogether.

    Remember the World Congress when you could cripple an opponent just through Diplomacy and Economic embargoes? That was elegant in that there was flexibility and choice in those options, not this "war is the solution for everything" approach that you fancy so much.
     
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  16. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

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    I don't f
    I don't fancy anything ,I just expect the other players not to let me win for some RP reasons. If they were a congress or whatever kind of "advanced" diplomatic game at the end , I'd expect them to use that for some , and yes war for others. But they aren't any of this kind of feature, so.... if your solution is to implement a more sophisticated game , I'm all for it , it might more elegant but definitely not simple , and realistically will not occur before at least one expansion. But we all know that.

    Btw, I don't mean *only* war , at least if I'm peacefully winning a cultural victory by having all kinds of bonuses from open borders (is that still in the game ? ) or caravans (those are there) , at least get them to close their border and declare at least a short war to destroy those damn caravans. Not passively wait for me to win while trading away all of their art pieces , relics and stuff... it's too damn idiotic for me :)
     
  17. martyb36

    martyb36 Chieftain

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    They had to do something, and since it's just a patch they couldn't bring in a whole congress system. Really this was the only option other than make everyone refuse to trade resources/gold with you. Which really wouldn't make all that much difference.
    I agree it would be good if they started being ruthless with their spies and were sabotaging and stealing. But with a science victory it's easy to pile all your promoted spies into the space port to stop it. Could hurt a culture win quite hard though.
    Perhaps a more nuanced version of this such as congress hate will come in at an expansion, but for now this is much better than me coasting to victory and not having to give a second though to how well I'm defending myself. Could add more value to defensive pacts. Get them in before you hit the danger zone.
     
  18. sonicmyst

    sonicmyst Emperor

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    Just won today at King diff as Nubia via cultural victory. No modifier showed in AI. I only had Kinetikam and Improved Fog of War mods enabled. Any idea why this modifier didn't show?
     
  19. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    Put myself in the AI's shoes and I'd be pretty concerned too about someone's winning threshold. Say what you will about their abilities, the AI can display more backbone where a human player would get fatigued and demoralised.
     
  20. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    Good thing the AI doesn't say screw this and reload the game and change its strategy. :D
     

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