We demand liberal/secular

Alzara

Emperor
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
1,214
Location
Florida
Hey guys

Does anyone else hate this effect? It's a nice idea but not on a map where you end up with 20+ civs all adopting these civics, crippling your civic choice to boring old liberal and secular?

Maybe some buildings could reduce the effect of civic anger?

Or, alternatively, why not make liberal and secular more powerful civics and remove their civic anger effects?

Anyone else got any thoughts?

Al
 
Totally agree on the negative impact of this feature.

Every and any civic able to produce happiness and prosperity is the envy of all other nations. How to model this in a game is admittedly not easy.

I suggest the "demand civic" be weakened and distributed to more civics to represent the roving desire of people. The grass always appears greener in the adjacent pasture!
At the moment I am playing a peaceful but powerful English Free church nation, being hounded by a large secular liberal confederacy of nations (under the Hittites). I have fought a very successful defensive war for a few centuries, and my people are very difficult to keep happy, even though I am extremely prosperous and powerful. Its ok for them to be disgruntled at the prolonged wars, but the liberal secular confederacy is not prosperous nor even victorious. They have lost literally legions of calvary, cannon, and grenadiers. I have threefold civic anger, in some cities double digit. Extremely unrealistic.

The other option is to eliminate it entirely.
 
Not too fond of it either.

I want choices not limits.

JosEPh
 
I agree, I suggest cutting open the xml and knocking it away for now, but it really seems like it should be maybe a lump sum of -2 or 1 and leave it at that.
 
Actually, don't several populaces want thier government to be more religious. I don 't think it's state religions people generally dislike, but rather the oppression of non-state religions. So what basis is there for people demanding that their government be more secular? Where in history has this happened?
 
Actually, don't several populaces want thier government to be more religious.

If you put it to a vote, I bet 30% of the us would vote yes on making Christianity a state religion, hell its on our money and lots of other places
 
Well here's what I did in my most recent game:

Liberal no longer produces civic anger
Liberal provides +50 :culture: in all cities
Liberal provides +3 :) in 6 largest cities

Secular no longer produces civic anger
Secular provides +50 :culture: in all cities (replaced 25%)

Anyone got any other suggestions on top of this?

Al
 
Perhaps civics which have state religions would cause unhappiness in cities with non-state religions. This effect would be caused by your country's civic and not be affected by your neighbor''s civics. More oppressive civics would cause more unhappiness. Civics which are not religious could also have similar effects. It would also put pressure on states to choose the most widespread of their religions, as is often the case in reality. Also, can we get rid of the folklore civic. It's overused and unrealistic. We don't have to change the name, but it should allow for a state religion (I can't think of an early civilization whose leaders did not have religious power).
 
I agree this civic anger thing is strange and annoying. The strange part being that is there a proof of the total superiority of liberal and secularism ? Why would people even bother about it ? Hell, nowadays most countries haven't heard of secularism and liberalism, and they don't care !

I rather think that for each civic change, you should get some temporary unhappy faces, as there is always a vast portion of the population who won't want to change from what they perceive as a tradition. There should be more resistances to reforms (think Europa Universalis, and stability concept).
 
I agree with all you guys. I'm not a fan of the crippling happiness penalty you get if you don't immediately adopt these two civics. It takes choice out of the game as you basically have to adopt them or face stagnation and even revolution.

Liberal I can perhaps understand if it means civil liberties, i.e. people's freedom of choice. Although in terms of government and taking the US as an example, everyone knows that there is a strong polarity between so called liberals and the more conservative republicans.

However secular I can't get my head around. There is no way in hell that a deeply religious country such as Israel or India would suddenly demand to get rid of religion completely. So going from state religion to secular just wouldn't happen unless it was over the course of at least several hundred years. Can you imagine what would happen in reality if the governments of those countries even tried to change to a secular society? They would probably end up dead!

I realise for gameplay purposes sometimes things are done to create more tactical choice even though they don't strictly reflect reality. However in this case I think demanding secular/liberal is both unrealistic and no fun in gameplay terms.
 
Great feedback. Interesting that not even one supporter of the current lib/secular bonus.

Latest on my game... Another liberal/secular alliance attacked me. I was forced into the religious Intolerance civic to survive the anti war sentiments my empire is quivering under, and yes, I had to become a Fascist. Still is a wonderful challenge of a game, and I just love this mod (ROM)! But... to think that liberal/secular is desirable is just plain insane.

I DEMAND LIBERAL/SECULAR BE DEMOTED. lol

Seriously, it needs to be toned down somewhat. It forces the AI down a path, which has yet to proven by modern history to be Hurrah Hurrah!! (Isnt the current global financial mess one of its products?)

At the moment, my state religion bonus is about +3, liberal secular unhappiness is -7 each. Its simply unfair. My empire isnt even functioning like a raving religious fanatic (intolerant fascist). High production, massive public applause, fanatical fighters. After all, why does the world fear religious extremism?

Not having the time to learn how to mod myself, can someone please just tell me how to modify the civics. I am sure the civics can be improved to reflect my own civics philosophy (and I have been a student of history for many years).
 
Not having the time to learn how to mod myself, can someone please just tell me how to modify the civics. I am sure the civics can be improved to reflect my own civics philosophy (and I have been a student of history for many years).

I agree - zappara hasn't commented in this thread so I'm not sure what his opinion is on toning down or eliminating this penalty, however if he isn't keen to do so then I would also be interested to know how I could make the changes myself each time a new version of RoM is released.
 
1. Go to the Rise of Mankind folder in your BTS/mod directory.
2. Open it, then open the 'assets' folder.
3. Then open 'XML', then 'GameInfo' and you'll see an XML file called CivicInfos. Open it in Notepad or Wordpad.
4. Search for a line called 'CivicPercentAnger' - I think that's what it's called - and set it to 0 for both civics.
 
Yeah I noticed they are set at 200%? I think that's what it was... I'm curious how that percentage is actually calculated into anger. I mean... what would happen if it's dropped to just say 100? Would that just halve the anger? Right now I haven't had many issues with the anger except in some of my very large cities that have grown a ton and I've been playing on Huge and Giant map games with sometimes 15-30 civs, even while at war.
 
The best thing to do would be to replace those penalties by other bonuses, so that those civics stay attractive, as I'm sure they have qualities all by their own.
 
1. Go to the Rise of Mankind folder in your BTS/mod directory.
2. Open it, then open the 'assets' folder.
3. Then open 'XML', then 'GameInfo' and you'll see an XML file called CivicInfos. Open it in Notepad or Wordpad.
4. Search for a line called 'CivicPercentAnger' - I think that's what it's called - and set it to 0 for both civics.

Thanks Jabarto, that's really handy info!


Yeah I noticed they are set at 200%? I think that's what it was... I'm curious how that percentage is actually calculated into anger. I mean... what would happen if it's dropped to just say 100? Would that just halve the anger? Right now I haven't had many issues with the anger except in some of my very large cities that have grown a ton and I've been playing on Huge and Giant map games with sometimes 15-30 civs, even while at war.

My thoughts exactly. Anyone know the answer to this question?
 
However secular I can't get my head around. There is no way in hell that a deeply religious country such as Israel or India would suddenly demand to get rid of religion completely. So going from state religion to secular just wouldn't happen unless it was over the course of at least several hundred years. Can you imagine what would happen in reality if the governments of those countries even tried to change to a secular society? They would probably end up dead!.
Given that India has a secular government, I can say, (especially based on the rest of the comments in your post), you sir, don't know what you're talking about.

England, and Israel (a very special case) are the exceptions to the rule of secularization in the 1st world. I know there are theocrats in every nation, who long for us to return to Middle Ages Era oppresion, and they are in firm control of most of the Middle East. But as a whole, the developed world cast aside State Religion in the 19th century. And with England, they are a de facto secular government. Hell if they had been secular in 1776, they would never have lost the US, but that's another topic.
 
England lost the US because taxes were unbearable. Not because of religious dissensions.

In fact, all of Europe great colonial empires were lost because of the europeans thinking they were of superior bred, resulting in scandalous oppresion in the colonies. Even toward other white people.
 
State religions were cast aside during the Ade of Reason as they were seen as bad for government. Philosophers came to see the teachings of the church as backwards and felt their government owed no loyalty to it. The populace at large however did not demand secular government. In the case of India, Muslims planned to break away from the nation rather than be ruled by a Pro-Hindu government. As I remember, I don't think they believed a truly secular government could be made in India and even if it could, they would still rather live under Islamic law. Pakistan did break away, however, secular government still dominated in India because of the teachings to the Age of Reason which have become popularly accepted as laws of good government. The reason for this being the resounding success of secular governments in the past. No one ever demanded a secular government. Everyone just keeps demanding that their religion should be the state religion. I'm not convinced that the populace at large honestly believes secular government is good, I keep hearing they talk about how their religion really should run the government. However, secular and liberal governments do have some inherit traits which make them desirable, but they do not cause unhappiness in religious states (just mildly bad relations).

It;'s easy to look around today and say that all the best governments are secular, but 500 years ago, all the best governments were monarchical and feudalistic, and 2000 years ago all the best governments were imperialistic. To be fair (and objective), RoM should not acknowledge any civic as being superior do another in the minds of the entire populace. It is understandable that people of non-state religions would not like a country with a state religion, but other countries being liberal or secular does not affect the perception at large.

That brings up another issue. Ive noticed several civics are pretty muc useless or become obsolete over time. I love state church, but that -20% science really puts your government at a major disadvantage. Also, divine cult is completely useless, as are nobility, despotism, marxism, ad so forth. I really miss that ridiculous feature of Civ4 where communism almost always solves all your economic problems.
 
Top Bottom