We need a new modpack library

[Drift]

This is going to be long. If you don't have the patience to read it, you don't probably have the patience to discuss the matter in depth.

With all due respect to work done by Sir John, our current modpack library is utterly useless and serves no purpose. Therefore, we need a modpack library. It is true that most of the played modpacks stick to the first page, but it would be a good thing to have them listed in one place anyway.

Problems with the library are:

1) The vast number of modpacks and the poor quality ratio of mods - high class mods are few and far between. The quality mods need to stand out and I see two options for how it can be done:
- include only the high quality mods
- include all mods, but differ the high quality mods from the rest.

Problems with this are that it includes rating mods to the good and the bad, which will cause hurt feelings no matter what. However, in order for the library to serve its purpose, high quality mods can't be drowned to the mass.

In my opinion, there are two options for how the choice is made:
- Dictatorial approach. Librarian chooses the high quality mods.
- Vote. Modmakers who believe their mod certifies as a truly high quality mod start a thread in main C&C requesting for mod's inclusion to the quality mods and certain number of favorable replies is required for this to happen.

Problems with the dictatorial approach are obvious, but if that one person has a good and fair eye for mods and can stand scathing criticism, it can work pretty well. Vote is more fairer, but there is the question of who can vote. For example, is the vote accepted if the voter has registered the same day and has one post? It could be that he/she registered to vote for his/her favorite mod or it could be something more shady like modmaker making double accounts or asking his friends to vote. Perhaps voting should require one month of registration? In order to check votes, the vote shouldn't be made as a poll.

2) The second problem is the different versions of Civ the mods are based on. In addition to mods being made for Civ3/PTW/C3C they are often made for a specific patch. Should all mods be included or just those that have been updated to the latest patch of the base they've been made for (Civ3/PTW/C3C)?

3) How about the scope of the modpack. Should modpacks be labeled into groups for example as total conversions, modpacks and rule changes? Total conversion is for example Warhammer 2.0 - a completely/mostly new game, modpack is for example a mod with new civ(s)/units/techs/... , rule change is simply a new bic/bix/biq with no new additions.

- -

My proposition for the library's structure is as follows:
- Organized into three groups: total conversion, modpack and rule change
- Each group lists its high quality mods first and the rest in alphabetical order.
- Only those mods that work with the latest patch of their base civ3 version (civ3/PTW/C3C) are included unless the mod shows exceptional quality (for example, Fantasy Empires).
- Quality mods are chosen via vote. One month registration is required from voters and a certain number of favorable votes is required. It's only possible to vote favorably - no negative votes.

Library also needs a librarian and good ones are hard to come by. I won't even consider suggesting myself as I've already given up with one library.

Discuss.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I think there is a need for a new modpack library.

IMHO, there are a lot of modpacks that, when it boils down to it, are Civ3 plus "X." They're generally well put together, and hard work has obviously gone into them, but they have maybe one or two leaderheads, a couple of new techs and improvements, a few new units. These mods - which can be enjoyable - need to be kept seperate in the library from, for example, Master of Myrror, which is far more than Civ 3 + X. Whilst I'm speaking about the Civ 3 + X mods, perhaps I could make a suggestion about leaderheads? Maybe they could use a single frame animation for the leaderhead in the mod and have links to where the leaderhead flics are available to download should the user wish to have them? What can be frustrating, and a drain on Civfanatics' server, is a 100MB mod, where 90MB is six leaderheads you've already downloaded (or created yourself!) or are available elsewhere. This is only a suggestion to save download time and server space, not an implication that anyone's doing anything wrong .

As for the rating system - it's all very subjective. Modmakers put in a lot of time and effort, and I'd hate to think of someone feeling upset over a low rating. I do think all mods should be included, regardless of the quality. Perhaps there could be two awards to aim for - the librarian's award and the civfanatics members' award - achieved by obtaining a certain number of votes. This award could be like record sales - ie even when a mod's gone "platinum," it has the chance to go "double-platinum" by getting even more votes over time. Award-winning mods could go to the top of the list.

I think that if the mod has known bugs, there should be a message in the library indicating that. It would then be up to the modmaker(s) to correct the bugs in order to get that message removed.

IMHO, the thread should look like this: Post one links to award-winning mods of all kinds, post two links to mods which completely change the game, post three links to era-specific mods, such as the Ancient Mediterranean mod, and post four links to "Civ 3 + X" mods. Each mod then has a post of its own, which would need to include the modmaker(s), a brief description of the mod, which version(s) of Civ 3 it works with, how the mod differs from the real game (eg. 10 new techs, including glass-making; 25 new units including the Cornish breseler), the known bugs and any awards. It should also include a link to the mod's thread and advise how large the download is.

Those are my thoughts.

 

[mrtn]

Drift, it is possible to make a public poll where you can see who voted what.
Generally it feels like an impossible job being the librarian; having to download and install all available mods would take a year!

 

[CivArmy s. 1994]

Check the example of the Brazilian Civilization site: there the moderator choice the good creations and build the site library, there also is a topic where people can coment all the creations. I suggest:
- create a library of creation done by the moderators, just them can post there
- separate this library in sub-libraries, like leaderhead, units, maps...
- create a area for coments of all the users
- maybe make a ranking, better two rankigs: the moderator give him "score" of 0 to 5 starts to the creation and make the library Top-Ten, where ranking the 10 better wonders, for example.

The problem is, it takes a long time and need many people to do!

that is my idea

 

[GIDustin]

I have started a mod/scenerio library of my own, and am not 100% done with it. I also plan to allow anyone to add to it (approved by me of course). Should be done by thursday

- GIDustin

 

[Drift]

@R8XFT

In order to lessen the amount of hurt feelings caused by rating mods I thought it would be best to keep the rating simple - either mod is included in the specially listed mods or it isn't. I like the idea of "civfanatics members' award", but I'm not sure if the librarian's award is needed as it would probably be given to most mods with the members' award making it somewhat redundant. I also like the idea of mentioning known problems/bugs in the library. I'm not sure if a post for each mod is needed. That information should be accessible in mod's own thread's first post where the library naturally links to.

Leaderheads are a little tricky thing. With the amount of trouble people have with installations spread over several files, I as a modmaker want to make sure that installing the mod is as straightforward as it can be. I know from own experience that if a mod requires me to hunt for additional files, install a number of packages and so on, the chances of me trying out the mod suffer a hit. Especially if I'm given a list of things I need to download from somewhere else (units/lh's/...) the chances are I won't bother unless I know the mod is among the absolutely best mods for Civ3.

@mrtn

Didn't know that about the poll. Thanks. I don't think the librarian has to try out all the mods. He/she could add the mods that are included as given and then ask for modmakers to send him/her details of their mod including stuff like what version it requires, known bugs and such. This would be the requirement for inclusion to the library.

@CivArmy

If I'm not badly mistaken, moderator led libraries were considered at some point. Moonsinger was supposed to start some kind of a library, but she isn't around any more. I don't think the library will be started by CFC - it's up to us.

@Gidustin

Excellent! I'm waiting with interest to see what it's like.

Still, I feel a CFC library is required as well.

 

[GIDustin]

Well, I finished early and added 3 mods already. I could've added more but I like to have detailed descriptions of the mods, and a preview graphic of some sort, and mods like DyP and TAM dont offer them. Plus, it really helps if the owner of the mod makes the description as they know more than I ever will.

Also, I finished the submit form for people to add things to my site. I wonder how that will go.

 

[Drift]

Good looking library Gidustin. Should provide useful.

Anyway, I'm finding myself interested in running a modpack library after all. Hmm. Here's an example of what a single entry might look like:

Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.01 - CIVFANATICS MEMBERS’ CHOICE
Created by: embryodead
Description: Fantasy themed total conversion based on a popular Warhammer Fantasy Battle universe.
Version required: Conquests 1.22
Download size: 260MB
Notes:

- -

If I was to start this project, inclusion to the library would require a few things:
a) Mod has to work with the latest patch of its base (C3C/PTW/CIV3)
b) Modmaker has to submit the mod to the library by filling out this form and sending it to me via PM :

Type of mod: Total conversion / Modpack / Rule change
Title of the mod:
Thread URL:
Created by: your user name
Description: Max 30 word long description of the mod.
Version required: Conquests 1.22 / Play the World 1.27f / Civilization III 1.29f
Download size: ???MB
Notes: for example known major bugs​

I would probably divide the library to three sections each covering one post: Total Conversions, Modpacks, Rule Changes. Civfanatics members' choice mods would be listed first in their own category. I don't think a post dedicated just for the members' choice mods is required. Members' choice award would be decided via vote, but I have no idea how many favorable votes it should take to award a mod. It's hard to predict how willing people are to vote on these things - it could be that the bar is set too high and not even WH2.0 or DyP gets the award or that the award is dished out to anyone asking for it.

Dunno, what do you guys think?

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

GIDustin's library is the best set-up IMHO. I'll give Warhammer 2.0 as an example - an extremely well-put-together mod with two years' work behind it. However, as I'm not interested in fantasy mods, I wouldn't use it. Yet, looking through GIDustin's "teaser," I realise that I will download it, as it has unique stuff in there that I wouldn't mind myself (eg units, techs), so it'll be worth downloading to see how they work and perhaps fit into a non-fantasy mod.

If I were to read a general brief on it, I would have passed it by. That's no disrespect to Embryodead and the team, as it's extremely well done, it's just that fantasy mods ain't my cup of tea .

I still think that all mods need to be included in the library. The question for me is not "what is a good mod?" but "which mod(s) will I download?" Some mods I recognise are well-done do not appeal to me, whereas other "poorer" mods might include some artwork/civilopedia entries etc that I may wish to use in a mod of my own.

 

[Drift]

@R8XFT

But GIDustin's library doesn't serve the average CFC user trying to get a grip on the modpack forum. It is excellent, but it should be as a link under completed modpacks to serve its purpose regarding CFC.

I'm not sure what do you mean by "all mods need to be included in the library". In a sense, completed modpacks is a library in itself containing all the mods made for Civ3 and released at CFC. Majority of them aren't played by anyone, don't work or are out of date. Why should they clutter the library? I view this proposition of a new modpack library as a way of giving a spotlight to those modpacks that are up to date and actually work. A special spotlight would be given to those modpacks that the community has found to be special.

Creators' needs are different from the average players' needs. Average player clicks completed modpacks and is confronted with a mass of threads. I feel that this library should be made with the average player in mind. Creators will find their way around without it, but it's the occasional visitor from General Civ3 discussion who may opt not to bother with the confusing modpack forum.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

....but who is the average player? How can that be determined? Different people have different needs from a modpack library. Even ones that don't work may have things in there that are interesting to some people. If they are marked "contains bugs," then it will ensure people realise it's a mod with faults. In fact, doing that would mean that people aren't just looking through the "completed modpacks" forum, downloading mods of interest to them, only to find out after downloading that they don't work.

I'm not sure what do you mean by "all mods need to be included in the library".

I mean exactly that. People need to know what's available, and, as I said in an earlier post, the library would split the modpacks down into fantasy, "Civ 3 + X," and era-specific mods. If this was done alphabetically, it would serve as an easy way of finding a modpack you had noticed in the past, not downloaded, but now are wading through the "completed modpacks" forum to look for.

 

[Drift]

Our approach to this is clearly different.

The only requirement set for the mods in my proposition is that the mod must work with the latest patch of the Civ3 version it is based on and that the creator must be around to submit it to the library. If I were to take up this job, I would not start filtering through the mess that the completed modpacks is checking out each mod. I'm not sure exactly who would start such a job as it would be insanely time consuming and tedious.

If modmakers would pick this up, we would have a list of mods that actually work and are up to date. By average player I mean someone who plays the mods - nothing else. Therefore, I would like to build the library with the playing public in mind. That's why I would like to restrict the library to the mods that work with the latest patch. Like I said, creators will IMO find their way around the completed modpacks and can find useful and interesting stuff in even the faulted mods, others will probably want to focus on those that are guaranteed to work and would like to find them easily.

 

[GIDustin]

There was a space wars mod made awhile back, and it had more bugs than features, BUT it had a really good space terrain attached to it, so I downloaded it anyway. Would you add things like that to the library, or just extract theuseful stuff and post them seperate?

Your idea sounds like it would work, however not alot of people will be PMing you unless you really get the word out. Most people just want to post what they've done, and sit back to watch the downloads. There are still civ3 items being made that arent even being added to TFs front page news as the creator didnt post in that thread, and by now most people know about it.

So,what I am saying is that in order to have a decent library, no matter where it is, you have to wade through the stuff yourself. The reason the other libraries arent doing so good is that the person who started them fell behind for awhile, and came back to see an overwhelming number of new additions, and simply didnt want to add them. Mods would probably be easier as there are less mods being released than say, units or Leaderheads (/me looks at R8XFT and CivArmy).

- GIDustin

 

[Drift]

@GIDustin

The mod library I'm proposing would be focused on mods that can be played. Therefore the inclusion of Space Wars would depend on whether it qualifies as a playable mod that works with the latest patch. However, if a mod isn't playable but has other redeeming qualities, exceptions can naturally be made. Space Wars would warrant an exception, just like Fantasy Empires warrants an exception to the rule about mod having to work with the latest patch.

I know that everyone wouldn't submit their mods to the library. Don't understand why, but I know it would happen. In the Building & Wonder Graphics Library I had a request of PM notification of new buildings as I was starting to fall behind. Only people who ever notified me of their creations were Rufus and AK47. I figured that the ratio would be better with mods where the creation has taken a lot more work than a single improvement/wonder so the incentive to promote it would be higher.

I know that the best results are achieved when the librarian gets down and dirty with the material and organizes it himself. I did that with the building & wonder graphics, but I will not do it with mods. The reason I brought this thing up was that the lack of proper mod library has nagged me for ages and I reached a point where I had to do something. With the rather slow start of discussion I started feeling like it would probably be up to me to do it. You have amazing collection at civ3files.com, but I doubt you want to maintain two paraller libraries (or do you?)

So what I'm offering is that if nobody wants to make a CFC library where he/she takes full responsibility, I'm willing to maintain a library where the workload is shared with the creators themselves. I can add some of the top mods myself as I'm somewhat familiar with them, but I won't be installing all the mods found here at CFC just to make sure they work. If someone is willing to do that, I'm more than happy to let them do it. I just figured that my solution would be better than the current nothing we have.

 

[Drift]

Despite the overwhelming interest (sorry about that - couldn't help myself. ) I feel like going ahead with this. I've been adding some of the most popular mods and putting together the library structure. I also opted against the vote system for the award and replaced it with a "recommended" award given by myself. Vote would be best, but there's no way it's going to work - people won't vote and they won't start threads asking for people to vote for their mod. The award is based on my view of what the community feels about the mod. My own preferences are naturally a factor, but I try to stay as impartial as possible. Submitting the mod is done by replying to the thread, not via PM as I have a feeling people are less inclined to use PM's.

So, should I go through with this or is it a bad idea?

 

[GIDustin]

Completely up to you. I think it would be a good idea, simply because then you and I can help to keep each other's library updated. Sure you're up for it?

- GIdustin

 

[Drift]

Okay, the library is open for visitors and contributors. Hopefully the creators pick up the idea and submit their mods. The ones that are currently included are just a start.