[GS] We need more science civs!

[Arent11]

I somehow get the feeling that someone on the designer team harbors a deep resentment against science civs:


Science: Korea, Scotland

Culture: America, Canada, China, Netherlands, Egypt, France, Pericles, Gorgo, Japan, Kongo, Sweden

Religion: Arabia, Tamar, India, Indonesia, Khmer, Mali, Poland, Russia, Spain

Domination: Hungary, Macedonia, Mapuche, Mongolia, Norway, Persia, Scythia, Sumeria, Zulu

Allrounder: Australia, Aztec, Brazil, Cree, England (GS), Germany, Inca, Maori, Nubia, Rome


Of course, some civs could be shifted to other victory conditions. But the pattern stays the same: They secretly hate us science players & want to force us to play Stellaris

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

What is actually a science civ in the first Place? Alot of civs may be indirectly strong in science by turing their advantages into a technological advantage.

 

[UWHabs]

The flaw with science is that it's very easy to be too OP, since science rules in the game. But I am a little surprised that more civs don't at least have a small, secondary science bonus, although you could easily argue that Sumeria (Ziggurat) and Alex (eurekas) do have a secondary science bonus, as does China (with the eureka bonus). You can stretch it to include civs that get extra adjacency from campuses, although most of them tend to get bonuses to multiple districts so are more rounded.

 

[Jewman]

Yeah I'm sorry to say it but science civs are so boring to me! Once you gain a technology edge, you can stop any other civ from winning by any other means and you can win domination/science(obvi) easily.

Edit: although I would like to see a science civilization that uses science yields/ buildings, great scientist, etc...in a unique and interesting way almost like Mali with gold. I think Korea's bonuses are a total snoozefest. Maybe something with drawbacks, like most of the GS civs have had so far.

 

[Arent11]

The flaw with science is that it's very easy to be too OP, since science rules in the game.

IMHO, early culture up to political philosophy is more important. In past civs science was extremely important. Anyway, that would just be a question of balancing.

---

Well, the only hope I have left is Eleanor. But reading her Wikipedia article I get the dreadful feeling it will be another culture civ.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

The flaw with science is that it's very easy to be too OP, since science rules in the game. But I am a little surprised that more civs don't at least have a small, secondary science bonus, although you could easily argue that Sumeria (Ziggurat) and Alex (eurekas) do have a secondary science bonus, as does China (with the eureka bonus). You can stretch it to include civs that get extra adjacency from campuses, although most of them tend to get bonuses to multiple districts so are more rounded.

Im not sure science is overpowered. Civilization VI is a game that being strong in one way make you strong in other ways as well which is why I question the categorization as science civs and so on.

 

[Arent11]

What is actually a science civ in the first Place? Alot of civs may be indirectly strong in science by turing their advantages into a technological advantage.

A civ that produces lots of science, for example due to unique districts, buildings, improvements, traits. Example is Koreas half cost campus district, Sumerias Ziggurats, Scotlands +10% happy science trait. Additionally, you could also list civs that are primarily geared towards science victories.

Im not sure science is overpowered. Civilization VI is a game that being strong in one way make you strong in other ways as well which is why I question the categorization as science civs and so on.

In let's plays you always see good players going for culture & expansion first. Maybe one could argue that science becomes more important in the mid/late game, but at least in the early game people seem to prefer other yields.

 

[Disgustipated]

Brazil and Australia are science civs. Well I'm just saying that early adjacency helps quite a bit.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Science: Korea, Scotland

Culture: America, Canada, China, Netherlands, Egypt, France, Pericles, Gorgo, Japan, Kongo, Sweden

Religion: Arabia, Tamar, India, Indonesia, Khmer, Mali, Poland, Russia, Spain

Domination: Hungary, Macedonia, Mapuche, Mongolia, Norway, Persia, Scythia, Sumeria, Zulu

Allrounder: Australia, Aztec, Brazil, Cree, England (GS), Germany, Inca, Maori, Nubia, Rome

Not sure I agree with that list. For one, Sumeria gets a science UB and China gets a science bonus from eurekas so they are science civs too at least a little. And civs that get bonuses to GP can use it to get more GS which is a science bonus. Don't underestimate the power of eurekas like the ones you get from a GS. A string of eurekas can really help your science, especially in a Golden Age with the eureka dedication. So I don't think that Korea and Scotland are the only science civs.

But as others have stated, a true science civ can easily be OP because of how crucial science is in the game. As it is, Korea is a top tier civ that is hard to lose with because you will have so much science.

 

[Siptah]

Arabia is kind of a science civ with Saladin‘s ability and the Madrasa.

 

[Xandinho]

I would count Sumeria as a scientific civ, since its Ziggurats are pretty good at accumulating science from the beginning of the game.
Arabia is clearly a potential scientific civ, and has enough synergy with its religion bonus.
Germany is directed towards domination, but it is also very good for scientific victory, with more production you can build space projects more quickly.
Brazil and Japan can easily go to scientific victory with their adjacency bonuses, and Brazil can recruit more great scientists if you focus on campus building right from the start.

I think the absence of many strictly scientific civs is obvious: any overly scientific civ is unfairly too powerful. With more science, you can build an army more powerful than your neighbors and dominate them, making it easy for you to achieve any kind of victory, not just the scientific one. That's why I think Korea is one of the most powerful civs for domination.

 

[Arent11]

Brazil and Australia are science civs. Well I'm just saying that early adjacency helps quite a bit.

Which is why they are listed under "Allrounders", since you can use that adjacency for everything.

Arabia is kind of a science civ with Saladin‘s ability and the Madrasa.

The ability grants bonuses to faith, science & culture & the Madrasa produces lots of additional faith but only +1 science. So I would rather list them under religion, but that's just my view.

Not sure I agree with that list. For one, Sumeria gets a science UB and China gets a science bonus from eurekas so they are science civs too at least a little. And civs that get bonuses to GP can use it to get more GS which is a science bonus. Don't underestimate the power of eurekas like the ones you get from a GS. A string of eurekas can really help your science, especially in a Golden Age with the eureka dedication. So I don't think that Korea and Scotland are the only science civs.

Sumerias Ziggurats are indeed strong & you could pursue a science victory with them. That's the only civ I actually wasn't sure whether I should list them under domination or science, but in the end I decided for domination. Chinas bonus is rather weak.

Civs that get bonuses to GP can apply them to all victory conditions, so I would list them as allrounders.

But as others have stated, a true science civ can easily be OP because of how crucial science is in the game. As it is, Korea is a top tier civ that is hard to lose with because you will have so much science.

Only later in the game. It's the same as with Mongolia or Zulu - if you survive into the midgame, you are strong.

That's also why I consider Ziggurats so strong, because they require almost no investment & give culture too.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I don't see why science is particular overpowered. Culture or early military advantages may translate into as strong if not stronger advantages than science itself can do. If you have an advantage in one area you can usally convert it into an advantage in other areas. An aggressive civ can conquer alot of cities and rush chop campuses so while it may not have direct science advantages it may outdo civs with science advantages simply by brute force.

 

[pgm123]

China's kind of a science civ too. Or do you mean exclusively science?

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Firaxis has actually done a good job of making the civs more complex in their unique abilities. A lot of the abilities are intertwined with lots of different aspects of the game so the civs are not always so easily categorized. A lot of the civs are hybrids with multiple abilities in different areas.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Which is why they are listed under "Allrounders", since you can use that adjacency for everything.



The ability grants bonuses to faith, science & culture & the Madrasa produces lots of additional faith but only +1 science. So I would rather list them under religion, but that's just my view.

Hmm? Pretty much every ability they have provides science. Yeah, science + religion (like +1 sci for every foreign city following your religion) but that's their thing.

 

[Steamboat Willem]

Not sure I agree with that list. For one, Sumeria gets a science UB and China gets a science bonus from eurekas so they are science civs too at least a little. And civs that get bonuses to GP can use it to get more GS which is a science bonus. Don't underestimate the power of eurekas like the ones you get from a GS. A string of eurekas can really help your science, especially in a Golden Age with the eureka dedication. So I don't think that Korea and Scotland are the only science civs.

But as others have stated, a true science civ can easily be OP because of how crucial science is in the game. As it is, Korea is a top tier civ that is hard to lose with because you will have so much science.

The biggest risk of losing with Korea is that you will fall asleep from boredom. You certainly won't be distracted by any interesting gameplay.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

The biggest risk of losing with Korea is that you will fall asleep from boredom. You certainly won't be distracted by any interesting gameplay.

Funny but kinda true, I have to admit. I love focusing on science in civ so I like science civs. But with Korea, you just need to spam your unique science district and you get so much science, it's not even funny. Perhaps that is why Firaxis has not given us a lot of pure science civs? They are not really that interesting. If you look at the other civs in the game, like Sweden, it's more interesting generally when the civ has unique abilities that are more complex than just a super science district.

 

[Sagax]

They made Korea, and people yawned out of boredom.

As of now, it’s hard to make a science civ without it being solely about filling the bucket. It’s partially because SV by itself is dull and passive, with fewer options to diversify your gameplan - and, as a result, fewer ways to add a new spin to this victory in a new civ design. At least with CV you have waaaay more ways to generate tourism, so more ways to showcase this victory condition.

 

[UWHabs]

Funny but kinda true, I have to admit. I love focusing on science in civ so I like science civs. But with Korea, you just need to spam your unique science district and you get so much science, it's not even funny. Perhaps that is why Firaxis has not given us a lot of pure science civs? They are not really that interesting. If you look at the other civs in the game, like Sweden, it's more interesting generally when the civ has unique abilities that are more complex than just a super science district.

I still wouldn't mind some civs having a little bit more science focus, at least as secondary bonuses. Although people also forget the fact that, for example, a Mission gives just as much science as a Ziggurat as long as it's next to a campus, so in theory you could also list Spain as having a small science bonus too. Even Russia adds a few points of science for their trade routes.