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We need space maps!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Snofru1, Mar 25, 2018.

  1. Snofru1

    Snofru1 Emperor

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    This mod is called Cave to Cosmos. And although not too many players reach the Cosmos part is has been worked on quite a lot in the past. While this part of the game is still far away from being finished, Colonization of other planets has been made possible, though.
    But how can we play or even test it?

    There are no random maps with space in it.

    There is Raxo´s map which has no competing civilizations in it.

    And there is TEHEP´s map which is good in general. I played it until the save game compatibility for new SVN versions stopped yesterday. Shortly before building the first Colony ships. I always want to play with the current SVN and I love to give feedback on my observations. Well, I am quite frustrated as I spent 282 hours with this game and I have to give it up now as I don´t want to continue with the buggy last working SVN version. But back to Vertical Solar map from TEHEP: It is simply too big. I can´t spend again such a huge part of my lifetime with this game, there is real life and spring is coming (finally!). It takes too long to proceed with this map and from modern age on I get more and more freezing and CTDs with it. Having only the earth part of the map already in gigantic doesn´t make sense IMO. This is a pity, as I like the map in general.

    I also don´t see multimaps coming in any reasonable time frame.

    So here is my plea:
    Please create a map script that makes it possible to create random space maps. With earth as it is now and space as it is in TEHEP´s map.
    And/or please create a few playable space maps that have the earth part in standard size or at most in large. You could take a random map from Toffer´s "World" mapscript and combine it with space. E.g. combine a Pangaea, a Continents and an Archipelago map with space.

    Unfortunately I am unable to do this by myself. But if you don´t have playable maps the later ages of C2C are 90% wasted.
     
  2. KaTiON_PT

    KaTiON_PT Emperor

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    There are random maps with space, there is one called Three Worlds you can try.

    Regarding your time commitment you can always try in normal speed.
     
  3. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Three worlds has only Moon and Mars.

    Also bliz speed is fastest - only 1000 turns, all its modifiers are set to 50, basically old Normal with doubled speed.
     
  4. Snofru1

    Snofru1 Emperor

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    Game speed doesn´t really matter, even in snail research is fast enough for me (after prehistoric every 2-3 turns or even faster). The problem is to manage such a huge empire, build literally thousands of buildings and have those epic wars which are fun but need hours to prepare and conduct. All these efforts are nearly the same with faster gamespeed but increase dramatically with size of map.
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Personally I don't see space map scripts coming before multimaps because I don't think anyone has the skill level and dedication that would be required. Toffer is the only one who could even pull it off and I'm thinking he's got a lot on his plate as it is. The only real option here is to for map makers to make so many maps that you get a wide variety of static options. Scripting has tremendous challenges. You'd have to basically write the script to isolate by lattitude what 'map type' you're working with. One of the main hurdles to multimaps we have as it is would be designing map scripts for each map type so I guess this early work on that would certainly be able to produce useful code to port over. I just don't know who would do it. I'm not that good with Python and have years worth of tasks to attend to before worrying about the late offworld side of the game.
     
  6. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Do we have Standard sized earth map?
    Standard map size is 84 x 52 = 4368 tiles
    Earth on my spacemap is map is 46x40 = 1840 tiles.

    I guess my space map could fit 3 AIs.
    Unless it would be extended vertically 2x
     
  7. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    If we concentrated on multi maps we might get somewhere. I would prefer that to doing random "raxo" maps:lol: as if we go that way we are more likely to continue puting off multi maps forever. As far as I can see what needs to be done for multi maps, in no particular order are
    • figuring out when is the best time to make the maps
      • can we spawn a process that runs in the background
      • do we need to have it before a certain tech
    • designing random maps - probably by recycling them from other mods as there are a number of mods out there based on Space or Mars etc.
    • switching between maps should be fairly straight forward as far as the main screen is concerned the only problem there is the minimap
    • moving units between maps would be via missions on the unit similar in appearance to the player as when unloading from a boat
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Answer: Soon as any player can potentially, for any reason at all, interact with the other map. This may be easiest to identify by tech so a new tech tag to initiate the map generation of a particular map type could be the trick. What I don't understand is how to run the generation of the map and store the map data. Koshling probably gets that better than I do and maybe one of the other programmers can interpret his work into an answer for that.

    I don't know whether this should be programmed in the code with supporting mapscripting or really how to go about setting this up at all tbh. I could probably delve into it but I have a lot of other things I want to do that take a lot more priority than opening up the biggest can of worms we've ever faced.


    The minimap should display whichever map we are on. There should be some arrow controls to switch maps right there in the margins of the left and right of the minimap panel (yeah it should be widened a bit.) I'm starting to think we might have the ability to do all that pretty easily now. We might also want a widget to not just +1/-1 which map we're looking at but also for a button to open up a popup selection of which map we want to go directly to.

    The thing here is... can we have a unit selected that isn't on this map? Probably not. So we might need to include map popups for selecting where a unit is going to move to on another map or something even more odd like suspending the unit but sending to the other map the coordinate selection request for that unit... I don't know. Gets weird thinking about some of this stuff and tremendously frightening in terms of what kind of dancing around OOS errors we'll have to do.
     
  9. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Koshling found that the minimap was the hardest thing when working with maps.

    As to moving between maps, mostly what you are suggesting is not what is needed. Mostly units will be moving from one known facility to another. Or similar to the "new units go here" function on the city.

    In the first instance just keep it simple.
     
  10. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I don't see how we're going to be able to have the game understand more than one map at a time and everything on it. If we do that, we'll overwhelm ram on the first additional map. It has to completely close out all info and store it and reload it with each map focus shift. Missions going from one city to another probably aren't hard to arrange, But would it always be then purely random when you send initial exploration and settling forays? I suppose that could work.
     
  11. KaTiON_PT

    KaTiON_PT Emperor

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    Speaking of which, in case someone is interested in making such a map, how do you go on about making a scenario like yours or @TPEHEP's? World builder? Write each coordinate manually?
     
  12. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    All art is already in memory. Even the stuff not used. Yes there is the plot definition of non displayed map plots, but that could be the coordinates, terrain, terrain feature, bonus and improvement, which need not be big. Units are different. Maybe caching?

    Have you thought of orbits. Initial surveys go into a random mapping orbit. You then select an landing site for the next mission. Maybe it gets there maybe it dosen't. Maybe it lands near where you aimed. Eventually you send a base. From there it is just between bases and becomes just like the "go to city" popup we have now.
     
  13. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    I used Smart Map script with max oceans and no/minimum everything else and set to one player.
    Then I forced smartmap to generate map of desired size.
    Vertical size of smartmap generated map and some chosen map must agree, if you want to have premade/pregenerated Earth
    Or you can make Earth planet yourself.

    When I was layering space sectors I painted 20 tiles long each.
    Earth, 2 - 3 layers of Orbit and 20 tiles long of:
    Cislunar space with Moon, Inner Solar System (Sun/Mercury/Mars/Venus), Outer Solar System, Kuiper Belt, Nearby Stars, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Observable Universe and Unobservable universe.

    Solar System zones could be 30 tiles long, Milky Way zones would be 20 tiles long, and extragalactic zones could be 10 tiles long too.
    You can add players manually after you are done with Earth and separated it with Orbit.
    Minimalist player configuration:
    Code:
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=0
        ContactWithTeam=0
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=1
        ContactWithTeam=1
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=2
        ContactWithTeam=2
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=3
        ContactWithTeam=3
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=4
        ContactWithTeam=4
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=5
        ContactWithTeam=5
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=6
        ContactWithTeam=6
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=7
        ContactWithTeam=7
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=8
        ContactWithTeam=8
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=9
        ContactWithTeam=9
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=10
        ContactWithTeam=10
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=11
        ContactWithTeam=11
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=12
        ContactWithTeam=12
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=13
        ContactWithTeam=13
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=14
        ContactWithTeam=14
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=15
        ContactWithTeam=15
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=16
        ContactWithTeam=16
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=17
        ContactWithTeam=17
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=18
        ContactWithTeam=18
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=19
        ContactWithTeam=19
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=20
        ContactWithTeam=20
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=21
        ContactWithTeam=21
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=22
        ContactWithTeam=22
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=23
        ContactWithTeam=23
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=24
        ContactWithTeam=24
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=25
        ContactWithTeam=25
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=26
        ContactWithTeam=26
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=27
        ContactWithTeam=27
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=28
        ContactWithTeam=28
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=29
        ContactWithTeam=29
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=30
        ContactWithTeam=30
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=31
        ContactWithTeam=31
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=32
        ContactWithTeam=32
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=33
        ContactWithTeam=33
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=34
        ContactWithTeam=34
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=35
        ContactWithTeam=35
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=36
        ContactWithTeam=36
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=37
        ContactWithTeam=37
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=38
        ContactWithTeam=38
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=39
        ContactWithTeam=39
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=40
        ContactWithTeam=40
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=41
        ContactWithTeam=41
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=42
        ContactWithTeam=42
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=43
        ContactWithTeam=43
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=44
        ContactWithTeam=44
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=45
        ContactWithTeam=45
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=46
        ContactWithTeam=46
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=47
        ContactWithTeam=47
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=48
        ContactWithTeam=48
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginTeam
        TeamID=49
        ContactWithTeam=49
        RevealMap=0
    EndTeam
    BeginPlayer
        Team=0
        LeaderType=LEADER_WASHINGTON
        CivType=CIVILIZATION_UNITED_STATES
        Color=PLAYERCOLOR_BLUE
        ArtStyle=ARTSTYLE_ANGLO_AMERICA
        PlayableCiv=1
        MinorNationStatus=0
        StartingGold=0
        StartingX=28, StartingY=20
        RandomStartLocation=false
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=1
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=2
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=3
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=4
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=5
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=6
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=7
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=8
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=9
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=10
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=11
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=12
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=13
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=14
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=15
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=16
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=17
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=18
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=19
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=20
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=21
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=22
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=23
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=24
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=25
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=26
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=27
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=28
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=29
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=30
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=31
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=32
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=33
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=34
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=35
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=36
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=37
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=38
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=39
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=40
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=41
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=42
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=43
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=44
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=45
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=46
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=47
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=48
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
    BeginPlayer
        Team=49
        LeaderType=NONE
        CivType=NONE
    EndPlayer
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
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  14. KaTiON_PT

    KaTiON_PT Emperor

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    @Snofru1

    So if I'm reading it right, you'd want something akin to what's on the attachments?

    The total map size itself is between standard to large (72x120).

    Alien map is a tiny sized C2C_world, which is 72x44 in size. I also included an actual earth map with the same proportions to give an idea of how it would look like. In both maps the main planet is able to place around 30 to 50 cities depending on how close you like them to be.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
    Snofru1 likes this.
  15. Snofru1

    Snofru1 Emperor

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    These maps do look great! Do they already exist or is it just the Minimap?

    But in fact my ideal map would be somewhat larger with the earth part of it in standard size. It would be perfect to have all resources and all main cultures (North American, South American, etc.) on the map, meaning enough space for 7 or 8 AIs. But I´d anyway love to play your Compact Alien map if it did exist!
     
  16. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Vertical spacemaps are more screwed than horizontal spacemaps:
    Horizontal spacemaps have broken longitude (longitude doesn't make sense on horizontal space map), meaning longitude limited animal spawns are broken.

    Vertical spacemap has not only latitude limited animal spawning broken, but also latitude requirements for buildings are broken.
    It is possible to have resources spawning when staring game on spacemap - there is setting for that in map file.
    On vertical spacemap it is completely broken, as latitude no longer makes sense.

    By the way latitude restrictions are broken on maps, that doesn't have Earthlike climate.
     
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  17. KaTiON_PT

    KaTiON_PT Emperor

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    Sure, that can be done. I'll go ahead and start working on making a functioning one with a tiny sized alien main planet for you to test later in order to see its feasibility. It has 3168 squares so it should take me around 8 hours to do it. Later I'll try doing a standard sized, 4368 squares alien or earth main planet, not sure yet.

    The map itself will come from C2C_world, thus having the C2C resources already placed, saving me a lot of guess work.

    Compromises have to be made until multimaps are ready, and animals aren't really that important besides the earlier eras for the research and later educational boost via myths and stories.

    We could suggest people to use your mod-mod that removes latitude limited buildings as there are quite important buildings/wonders that have one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  18. Snofru1

    Snofru1 Emperor

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    Great, thanks a lot :hug: ! I am looking forward to play this map, Raxo´s modmod will help, too!
     
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  19. KaTiON_PT

    KaTiON_PT Emperor

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    Hey @Snofru1, I'm about finished with the alpha version of the compact alien map. The main planet is done but the rest of celestial bodies need work, though their shape is done.

    Could you help me @raxo2222? For some reason the map crashes on "Initializing Graphics", any idea why? The plot info is correct as far as I can see with all 8580 plots correctly mapped.

    EDIT: Here is how the main planet looks like (60x40). It has 7 civs on it each representing a different human culture group.

    EDIT 2: New version with some compatibility tweaks according to this post.

    EDIT 3: Fixed issue with missing "TERRAIN_" tags. See the next post for alpha version.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  20. KaTiON_PT

    KaTiON_PT Emperor

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    Found out what happened, missing TERRAIN_ on GALACTIC_VOID.

    Remembered there are things called logs. :p

    EDIT: Added middle-eastern civ to main continent. Overall better spots for every civs.

    EDIT 2: Attached how the full map looks like. Celestial bodies still in need of work (looks and resource placement).
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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