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'We should have been more audacious' - A Civilization: Beyond Earth retrospective

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by Ari Rahikkala, Mar 6, 2015.

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  1. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    Yeah, I suppose it all depends on your perspective. An expansion that makes a flawed game significantly better could make someone go, "Man, what a good expansion" or "Shame the game couldn't be this good at release", or a mix of both, I suppose.
     
  2. Sherlock

    Sherlock Just one more turn...

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    Yeah, interesting business model that. Instead of actually finishing the first thing you said you were going to do (and people paid for) you just keep adding new things that you will (supposedly) eventually make but you want to get paid for now.

    I regret buying into that project, big time.

    Hey Chris, if you're reading this - 'FINISH SOMETHING, OK? AND STOP ADDING ON NEW THINGS THAT WE WON'T SEE FOR YEARS, IF EVER'.
     
  3. cooldude1128

    cooldude1128 Prince

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    ಠ_ಠ

    I'm pretty sure that before launch, the developers stated several times that BE is not and will never be Civ 6. It is a spinoff in the vein of Civilization 4: Colonization, and that clearly wasn't Civilization 5.

    The rest of your post has been pointed out as ridiculous by others, so this is just my two cents.
     
  4. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    At Firaxicon, Dennis Shirk was asked directly whether BE is Civ 6. His answer: "No."
     
  5. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Yeah that's why I called it a vaporware. But my point was more to underline the fact there is a strong market for that type of game. Mostly due to a lack of product actually.
     
  6. Joch

    Joch Warlord

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    no one pointed out it was ridiculous, it is sound business logic.

    you on the other hand seem to be totally ignorant of how the gaming industry works.

    Moderator Action: Let us not get into the area of who is ignorant. We are heading down the path to trolling.
     
  7. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    Be in no way civ6, every civ come with new engine and be used civ5 engine, it is for all practical purpouse a mod.
     
  8. rastak

    rastak Emperor

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    Yes, games using the same basic engine are mods.....like unity.....god knows how many mods there are of how many games.....hard to even determine the original game from the mods.
     
  9. Minor Annoyance

    Minor Annoyance Deity

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    Just googled "games using the same engine" and got this:
    http://www.gamesradar.com/remarkably-different-games-were-made-same-game-engine/

    This one is my favorite:
    PES Soccer 2014 and Metal Gear Solid 5 run on... FOX Engine
    Also there's the fact that Portal and Counter Strike are both made from Half Life 2, and Counter Strike is actually a mod.
    So it's a little unfair to but everything made from the same engine under the same umbrella of 'Mod" which would put them on the same level as the mods I made, most of which list File Size as 0.001 MB. Then also including Fall From Heaven II on the same level as my mods. FfH2 could have easily been sold as a stand alone game. So talk about how something isn't a legitimate game because it's using the same engine is poppycock.
     
  10. Minor Annoyance

    Minor Annoyance Deity

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    Are we actually discussing if the Civilization series if over? No Civ 6?
    There should be a rule that whenever doomsayers are proven wrong they have to eat a spider. It would certainly thin out the needless speculation and counter theories.
     
  11. Velasti

    Velasti Warlord

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    Yes, but the developers are not very skilled players.

    So if Maddjinn says the game is too easy, then the developers would say "No, you're too good".

    That's the point I was making. Skill vs difficulty is relative. The other thing is that humans are biased to think that they are better than average most of the time, and it takes a certain degree of humility to admit you are average at best.

    If all the developers think that they are better than average players, than difficulty level doesn't really matter all that much.

    I agree with you that Apollo was too easy, the point is that the developers wouldn't necessarily have thought there was a problem, because of a lack of testing. I.e. It would not have been too easy by design, and the developers would have thought that it was indeed, impossibly hard, for the average player.
     
  12. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    Yeah, the fact that MadDjinn was beating the game regularly on Apollo before release was another thing that should've set some alarm bells ringing.
     
  13. Gamgee

    Gamgee Chieftain

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    Star Citizen FPS module is going to be released in around 3 weeks. Arena Commander is getting quite regular patches as well.

    What everyone doesn't realize is when this game was originally pitched before all the KS people came along all it was was going to be 6 to 12 ships in an Arena Commander style game. That's it.

    There was like 12-20 people on the original team. You know Wasteland 2? The game with an 81 metacritic that had a larger development team. Let's just put that into perspective. Wasteland 2 took about 70-80 developers to make and many years. Smaller budget and less complicated game. Way less complicated.

    Chris and co are chronically short staffed at all levels of development. He is almost constantly looking for new people to hire or contract out and do work. In the span of a single year they went from 20 people to 120-140. It's now over 200 people working on Star Citizen with a huge chunk full of permanent people. GTA 5 had over 400 people working on it, a gigantic boat load of cash that makes SC look like a chump, and many many many many many many many many years.

    He has a team on almost every continent and easily freelancers from every one.

    He went from a personal team of people who were going to do big work for him for cheap to having to make an international video game studio. That ain't cheap. It ain't quick. They only really started development within the last year. It took a simple game with a small team like Wasteland 2 two years to develop. Chris has basically had one year. Hell in that time he has lost friends. The demands of his new studios is insane and some people that set out to develop SC with him are no longer with him. He asked if they would move their entire families for him to be closer to development studios. Many declined since they had their family and friends established where they lived. We have seen a lot of good people who were there from the start leave because they just couldn't meet the crazy workload or demands.

    They have been known to pry some developers away from their work stations and force them to take time off. They have to to keep the team all at a healthy psychological level.

    Also he shut down stretch goals. He basically said at this point anything they add would be so far off, and they have the budget they can do whatever they want.

    I know you don't believe this, and that's okay. I can't blame you for not following the almost 24/h news content and around the clock coverage they put out. It can be extremely overwhelming.

    You also have to keep in mind that Skyrim took 5 years to make from initial brainstorming and concept to beta testing and final mastering shipping disc. Again a gigantic established development team and a larger budget than him in particular for marketing.

    I could go on in depth, but I feel I've said all I can without being a bore. It's a game that will take a long time to truly get done. It will get done, but it's a long time off. Barring his death that is. Just forget about it and hope to be surprised several years down the line.

    As for me I'm in the trenches with the active fan base helping in any small way I can the whole way. I really can't wait to get my hands on the FPS portion and help them improve it and give them feedback.

    Yes I also realize at any moment that I could lose my investment and I'm okay with that. I took a healthy look at it and got involved in the community. The frustrating community, but also the brilliant one. I've done some role playing, done some organizations, helped point out bugs, tested the game, kicked some ass, had my ass kicked, got involved with all the news and videos, and just generally had such an amazing experience with the developers and community I can't see any of it as wasted time.

    But I'm what you would call a rather extreme fan.
     
  14. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Unless people of his skill level aren't the general target audience for the game. There are many things to consider even when looking at potential issues with AI scaling, and you need to consider them.
     
  15. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Such as?
     
  16. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    But that's the thing actually. If the developers aren't good enough. Please listen to your test group. Or if you want a larger sample then invite more people.
     
  17. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    1. How much work would it be to extend the difficulty levels (as you've said, not much).

    2. How many people will be playing this difficulty level compared to the effort invested to create.

    3. Bear in mind Steam achievements, signing off on relevant assets (note: just because you don't think this is important, doesn't mean it isn't for someone else).

    4. What other work could the relevant departments be doing in the time spent (however small) to extend these levels.

    5. What gameplay problems are we likely to encounter extending these difficulty levels.

    6. Are these additional levels even going to pose a challenge for said players in the first place.

    I mean, this is why I said I would've liked to see developer reasoning, because there were obviously reasons behind creating six difficulty levels as supposed to there being eight in CiV. Factually, there were reasons, because that's the choice they made. You can't turn that around into a "such as" one-liner, either, because it happened.

    We can look at brainstorming solutions, because we're here playing and debating about the game. The developers at the time? Be a bit slower to criticise them, because there will have been reasons. The person I quoted was talking about what went down at the time, pre-release.
     
  18. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    1. The five minutes that would take?

    2. Is that really a valid consideration for something that takes 5 Minutes?

    3. We have Achievements for very minor stuff. Achievements seem to be rather quick to make. (And is this REALLY an argument? Even if you have to make the decision between not implementing difficulty settings and implementing them and not having Achievements, how is cutting both rational?)

    4. See 1.

    5. Can't think of any

    6. Probably not for all players (if you keep it somewhat reasonable), but certainly for some.

    Overall, even if we think about all of this it seems to me that it's a rather easy decision to me.

    Oh sure they had reasons, to me your original comment just sounded a lot like you were arguing that they had absolutely VALID reasons to do so. That we don't know and I think it was a mistake on their part. Now of course, I don't know all the variables, but what I can see (and that's in part that modding in difficulties and having them run without ANY problems is super-easy) they either made a decision to cut some difficulties because they thought the difficulty curve would still work (which it doesn't, the curve was way too flat in 1.0 and now in 1.1 there's a HUGE gap between Apollo and Soyuz. Overall, any argument FOR fewer difficulties seems just extremely minor compared to the arguments against cutting the difficulty settings. Especially as they don't seem to know what they're doing with it.

    Also, I don't really think there's any need to "defend" the developers from criticism because there "may have been other reasons". I think they're very capable of seeing when criticism is valid and when it is not - so I very well assume that, for the odd chance that there were indeed very important factors that made them cut 2 difficulties and then scale the remaining ones very badly, the developers (if they ever saw my comment) would be like: "Yeah. Well, that person is wrong." - and that's basically it. So I don't see why we would need to "stay neutral" on something that seems rather one-sided.
     
  19. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    You're presuming five minutes, I'm presuming an hour for the sake of argument. We don't know for a fact. It's still a factor when evaluating man-hours invested into a project from a project-management perspective. Modding is not the same as developing an actual game.

    Achievements matter because of brand image and consistency. Games development isn't just one monolithic entity with the same ten developers responsible for the whole game. There'll be a marketing department (usually attached to the publisher), an art department that is separate to the balance and design team, etc, et al. If the trend is to attach an achievement to a difficulty level, then you can't easily break that for the sake of adding more difficulty levels.

    And yes, the amount of players playing does actually matter. If the amount of people playing any aspect of the game isn't worth the time invested in developing that feature - even if you think it takes five minutes . . . that feature will not be in the game considering a strict budget and / or development schedule. Again, project management.

    You asked me for reasons, and your response is either "can't think of any" or "i don't care", combined with a critical lack of understanding of software development. Nevermind the fact that for point 5. I already laid out examples earlier in the thread, so I guess when you were replying to me previously you were ignoring valid constructive arguments in the hope you could pick apart a line or two some more. Thanks for the debate, but I'll bow out here.
     
  20. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    I think it's far more likely that they wanted the difficulty levels to be roughly analogous to those of Civ 5's but screwed it up and accidentally made the game easier.

    It seems unlikely that the designers sat down and said, "Let's make Beyond Earth so easy that anyone who beats Civ 5 on Emperor will beat the highest difficulty on their same go, who needs those guys right?" when it's trivial to increase the higher difficulty levels so they're more challenging, as we saw in the first patch.

    Nothing would've been lost by including two additional harder difficulty levels in the base game, and good Civ players would've been happier about the game as a result.
     
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