We shouldn't expect all the "major" European civs to get modern era representation, and that's okay.

[Trav'ling Canuck]

But apparently the schools are teaching the kids these days : 'if a white guy did it, it wasn't okay.'

You have terrible schools if that's what children in your area are being taught. What my child is being taught now is that people (not "white people", people) sometimes did bad things as well as good things in the past, even the people who helped create Canada. As opposed to what I was taught in school, that our history was full of good guys who never did any of the bad things that those terrible Americans who lived south of us did (slavery, oppression of Native Americans, etc.)

 

[RedCourtJester]

You have terrible schools if that's what children in your area are being taught. What my child is being taught now is that people (not "white people", people) sometimes did bad things as well as good things in the past, even the people who helped create Canada. As opposed to what I was taught in school, that our history was full of good guys who never did any of the bad things that those terrible Americans who lived south of us did (slavery, oppression of Native Americans, etc.)

Eh I do sometimes encounter liberal rhetoric that seems a bit too oversimplified and threatens to be technically incorrect (or at least under-supported/ill-structured).

But, broad brush, ethnic exceptionalism is very much a continuous problem in most cultures. Just happens ours is white.

 

[Siptah]

Colonial crimes?

Excluding small isolated tribes that had no outside contact with other civilizations, how many civilizations can you name that didn't take land from another? That didn't practice some form of slavery? That didn't harvest resources from a neighboring location?

People don't seem to realize that this 'criminal' behavior is part of the natural evolution of societies.

If you think your particular culture, or the Native Americans, did not conduct themselves in this way at any point in time you are mistaken.

But apparently the schools are teaching the kids these days : 'if a white guy did it, it wasn't okay.'

Natives raided. They stole land, women, and children. They butchered. They slaughtered.

How many peoples on the planet are possibly still living in the same location they originated from? At what point does a land belong to one particular people? The history of civilization is one of war and conquest (even for Native Americans). At what point can one justly say: 'that land is now theirs, and any who takes it is a criminal.'

What if the land is given to them? Or sold to them? Like the Ottomans giving land to the Jews? Or the Louisiana Purchase? Still criminal colonization?

If you can correctly point out which land belongs to which tribe, and why it is theirs and not the tribe they pushed off or wiped out or enslaved, I'd love to hear it.

Just because others do it doesn‘t make it right - neither legally nor morally. Doesn‘t matter if you are Roman, Chinese, Kongolese, or American. Imperialism always came with horrible crimes, and the people who committed them might be heroes, but shouldn‘t be praised without talking about their misdoings - especially if those include genocide.

And to the last point, I don’t think land ownership is a concept that has sense to it once you think about it.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

And to the last point, I don’t think land ownership is a concept that has sense to it once you think about it.

"You cannot sell the earth upon which the people walk"

- Tashunke Witko (Crazy Horse) of the Oglala Lakota

 

[Zaarin]

Moderator Action: Please return to the topic of European civs in Civ7. Thanks.

 

[Arcaian]

Colonial crimes?

Excluding small isolated tribes that had no outside contact with other civilizations, how many civilizations can you name that didn't take land from another? That didn't practice some form of slavery? That didn't harvest resources from a neighboring location?

People don't seem to realize that this 'criminal' behavior is part of the natural evolution of societies.

If you think your particular culture, or the Native Americans, did not conduct themselves in this way at any point in time you are mistaken.

But apparently the schools are teaching the kids these days : 'if a white guy did it, it wasn't okay.'

Natives raided. They stole land, women, and children. They butchered. They slaughtered.

How many peoples on the planet are possibly still living in the same location they originated from? At what point does a land belong to one particular people? The history of civilization is one of war and conquest (even for Native Americans). At what point can one justly say: 'that land is now theirs, and any who takes it is a criminal.'

What if the land is given to them? Or sold to them? Like the Ottomans giving land to the Jews? Or the Louisiana Purchase? Still criminal colonization?

If you can correctly point out which land belongs to which tribe, and why it is theirs and not the tribe they pushed off or wiped out or enslaved, I'd love to hear it.

Moderator Action: Snipped off topic discussion--Zaarin

EDIT: started writing before the moderator action above, my apologies for continuing it. To pull the point back to European civs in Civ 7, I do think the progression system requires that the civs we release with to either be diverse enough that some european civs miss out that probably should make it in, or we have uncomfortable changes. I'd rather the former than the latter - if Germany or Russia isn't included, it won't be long at all until they're in.

 

[Xandinho]

EDIT: started writing before the moderator action above, my apologies for continuing it. To pull the point back to European civs in Civ 7, I do think the progression system requires that the civs we release with to either be diverse enough that some european civs miss out that probably should make it in, or we have uncomfortable changes. I'd rather the former than the latter - if Germany or Russia isn't included, it won't be long at all until they're in.

Or the British.
As hard as it is to believe they’re left out, some speculate that the Normans are the English representation in the base game. Also, Big Ben hasn’t been seen anywhere yet, and if there’s anything that truly represents the British Empire, it’s that.

 

[Zaarin]

Moderator Action: If you want to discuss colonialism, human violence, or other topics, please take it to OT or PMs.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Or the British.
As hard as it is to believe they’re left out, some speculate that the Normans are the English representation in the base game. Also, Big Ben hasn’t been seen anywhere yet, and if there’s anything that truly represents the British Empire, it’s that.

I do wonder about Oxford University. It was an Industrial Era wonder in Civ 6, and if they base it off of the foundations of the modern Royal Society and the first museum located in the U.K. they could easily tie it into being British.
But you are right about Big Ben, and I would associate that more with the British than Oxford. Exploration Age England will need a wonder.

 

[Zaarin]

Exploration Age England will need a wonder.

The Globe Theatre. After all, "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players."

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The Globe Theatre. After all, "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players."

Was thinking about editing that in, but you beat me to it.

 

[RedCourtJester]

The Globe Theatre. After all, "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players."

I am totally expecting "England" to make it in the game in the inevitable Brittannia expansion. Partly because it works so well to give Ireland a solid three-civ path. Plus, we gotta get our staple Lizzie back in the game somehow.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I do wonder about Oxford University. It was an Industrial Era wonder in Civ 6, and if they base it off of the foundations of the modern Royal Society and the first museum located in the U.K. they could easily tie it into being British.
But you are right about Big Ben, and I would associate that more with the British than Oxford. Exploration Age England will need a wonder.

I think either could be the associated British wonder, and the other could show up as universal.

As I was speculating elsewhere, I think "associated" wonders are more likely to reflect cultural layering, wherever possible.

Whereas universal wonders are more likely to represent more "universal" achievements specific to the era: architectural achievements in antiquity; religious or trade achievements in exploration (ala Notre Dame or Casa de Contracion); technology or diplomacy achievements in modern (ala Biosphere or Amundsen Scott).

Oxford obviously represents a sort of technological wonder more than a cultural wonder, being one of the oldest universities in Europe. And I think Big Ben, even moreso, represents both a technological and diplomatic wonder, namely the establishment of universal Greenwich time.

 

[Xandinho]

I'd go with Anglo-Saxons > England > British, after all, why not? I'd be a historically coherent and immersive English path.

I do wonder about Oxford University. It was an Industrial Era wonder in Civ 6, and if they base it off of the foundations of the modern Royal Society and the first museum located in the U.K. they could easily tie it into being British.
But you are right about Big Ben, and I would associate that more with the British than Oxford. Exploration Age England will need a wonder.

Are we certain it’s Modern? Even though it was represented as industrial in previous editions, ideally, it should be Exploration. But yes, Oxford University would also work as the British wonder to represent their scientific achievements during the height of the empire.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'd go with Anglo-Saxons > England > British, after all, why not? I'd be a historically coherent and immersive English path.


Are we certain it’s Modern? Even though it was represented as industrial in previous editions, ideally, it should be Exploration. But yes, Oxford University would also work as the British wonder to represent their scientific achievements during the height of the empire.

Oxford dates its beginnings back to the 11th century, which I cannot imagine being other than Exploration Age.

On the other hand, it was almost entirely a place for Classical/Biblical studies until the late 17th century, when 'experimental scientists' began to congregate there informally. Up until the 19th century, education at Oxford was almost entirely 'impractical' - no legal or medical study, no degrees referencing trade or economics or commerce: 59% of the graduates in 1840 went into the clergy! They only added 'natural science' as an undergraduate study in 1886.

All of which means that Oxford with a bonus to Science or technology could easily be a Modern Age Wonder, reflecting when it actually started to study and teach anything relevant to those.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I'd go with Anglo-Saxons > England > British, after all, why not? I'd be a historically coherent and immersive English path.


Are we certain it’s Modern? Even though it was represented as industrial in previous editions, ideally, it should be Exploration. But yes, Oxford University would also work as the British wonder to represent their scientific achievements during the height of the empire.

I actually think the Angles/(-Saxons), or Mercia/Wessex, stand a decent chance at being in base game. One of only three civs that I would speculate might exceed that initial antiquity leak of 13 antiquity civs.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think either could be the associated British wonder, and the other could show up as universal.

As I was speculating elsewhere, I think "associated" wonders are more likely to reflect cultural layering, wherever possible.

Whereas universal wonders are more likely to represent more "universal" achievements specific to the era: architectural achievements in antiquity; religious or trade achievements in exploration (ala Notre Dame or Casa de Contracion); technology or diplomacy achievements in modern (ala Biosphere or Amundsen Scott).

Oxford obviously represents a sort of technological wonder more than a cultural wonder, being one of the oldest universities in Europe. And I think Big Ben, even moreso, represents both a technological and diplomatic wonder, namely the establishment of universal Greenwich time.

Yes, I was going off the fact that we've seen Oxford, so it is more likely to be their associated wonder right now. But if the British don't make it into the base game, then Big Ben is more likely to show up as it.

Are we certain it’s Modern? Even though it was represented as industrial in previous editions, ideally, it should be Exploration. But yes, Oxford University would also work as the British wonder to represent their scientific achievements during the height of the empire.

No we aren't. I don't think it's been seen on a tech tree yet? I was just going off of where it was in Civ 6, and it would be in the Modern Age by those standards.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Yes, I was going off the fact that we've seen Oxford, so it is more likely to be their associated wonder right now. But if the British don't make it into the base game, then Big Ben is more likely to show up as it.

No we aren't. I don't think it's been seen on a tech tree ye? I was just going off of where it was in Civ 6, and it would be in the Modern Age by those standards.

I actually am not sure of that.

If my theory of universal wonders and capped player-wonders is correct, we are more likely to see more universal wonders than associated wonders prior to their associated civ reveals. Because the associated wonders wouldn't appear on the map unless the game was played with or against their associated civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I actually am not sure of that.

If my theory of universal wonders and capped player-wonders is correct, we are more likely to see more universal wonders than associated wonders prior to their associated civ reveals. Because the associated wonders wouldn't appear on the map unless the game was played with or against their associated civ.

I haven't heard of that before, are you sure that's the case? I can't imagine the Pyramids not appearing on the tech tree unless Egypt was in the game.

 

[Siptah]

I haven't heard of that before, are you sure that's the case? I can't imagine the Pyramids not appearing on the tech tree unless Egypt was in the game.

There wouldn‘t be enough antiquity wonders if that was the case. I can see this happening when we reach 20+ civs per age and we play with all of them.