Weakest new Civ in G&Ks

[NukeAJS]

Simple question: Overall, who do you think is the weakest new civ in G&Ks?

I'm not talking UAs here. I'm talking the entire Civ. Also, Spain isn't new so I'm not including them.

I'm throwing my vote to the Dutch. Polders are great, but only being allowed on flood plains and marshes make it too infrequent to use unless you get a desert start (which hasn't happen to me yet). Sure they have a marsh start-bias, but an entire UTI being used three times still isn't not enough. Basically, it's a great tile improvement that doesn't get utilized enough. It's like being the Inca and getting two mountains near you except that there are usually far many more mountains than there are marsh tiles. Even if you do get a lot of marsh tiles, you're cursed with marsh tiles until guilds.

The sea beggar is interesting. I once got to raze three cities in less than ten turns in a game just from using my fleet of eight beggars supported by three frigates -- great fun. Starting with supply is awesome, it's obviously the unit's strong point and possibly the best thing about the civ; all that being said, and this applies to privateers too, upgrading to destroyers basically makes the unit a sitting duck or a money drain for 40 turns after ironclads come out but before you can upgrade to destroyers. I never thought I'd say ironclads are awesome, but being able to turn caravels into ironclads is a thing of beauty. Some will say -- but prize ships! I say that you'd need a lot of frigates supporting your beggars to be able to fend off a modestly-sized ironclad fleet.

Their UA is ... eh. It's anti-war mongering because no one will make meaningful trades with you if you are a menace to the world; although when a civ does ask for every luxury you have, at least it's an option to trade instead of a slap in the face. So it seems to favor tall-empires except that I rarely have a happiness problem when I play tall anyways. It's most useful for selling resources for money, but that isn't as effective as it once was. It's still a nice though. Overall it's just -- eh.

Overall, the Dutch are too diversified. They have a trading UA geared towards happiness, a ship specialized in taking cities, and a (primarily food) tile improvement that doesn't get to be utilized often. While there are other new civs that are diverse, their unique things are strong. Carthage and free harbors at the start of the game comes to mind.

If you want to get into improving them, I'd say keep polders and the East India company the same. However, make their good sea beggar a great sea beggar by allowing it to moving after attacking but only after attacking a naval unit, not a city. This would allow them to do hit-and-runs against ironclads in the open ocean but prevent a city from getting attacked eight times by eight sea beggars in one turn. That's just too powerful.

 

[Loucypher]

The versatility of the Dutch is probably what saves them, actually. Their trading and the Polder allows them to be quite rich, said riches can be used to field a rather massive army. Also the Sea Beggars are probably the best Naval UU in the game, given how annoying the Privateer can already be. You won't need to be war-mongering; just pick your targets well. At a certain point, the early monetary advantage the Dutch have gained will have been enough to field a huge army without having to worry about denouncing Civs anymore.

I was originally thinking Sweden but not so much anymore. No, my vote is going to Ethiopia. Their ability is nice for turtling up, but it's nothing game-breaking and if you're on the attack it becomes useless. While their building and UU aren't bad per se, they aren't anything special either. Ethiopia just feels bland, and by extent not as good and interesting as the rest. Each of the other Civs have a unique trick or strategy.

Not-So-Honerable mention goes to Byzanthium. If they had a way to generate a tiny bit of extra faith in the early game, they'd be fantastic. Now they don't, and thus get beaten out by the Celts, Mayans and Ethiopians to the first faith, which means that while they will get use of their UA, it's not as much as they'd want. The Dromon is pretty cool, but the Cataphract...meh.

 

[avl8]

I guess Ethiopia was chosen as a weakest by a person who havent played them yet.
They are OP during early stages and finishing their religion 1st. They even can outrace Celts with their Stele sometimes.

A monument that gives you +2 faith is simply OP in the game where religion gives you huge benefits.

 

[Miravlix]

And you don't think attacking one ironclad with 8 sea beggars that capture it is overpowered?

The Sea Beggar and Pirate ship is OP, SB even more so do to it's free promotions.

Sound more to me like you want to change the dutchmen into a pure domination civ and then your simply playing the wrong civ.

 

[CivDecimation]

Polders are a good improvement but through my three games as the dutch I have only been able to build one in my non-puppeted cities. Their bonus is good early game, but isnt so helpful as the game progresses. The Sea Beggar just has an extra promotion if I am right, which is not so beneficial since I tend to beat down cities with frigates first.

I voted for Sweden. Could of voted for Byzantium because early UU naval units are often too early to have a big impact in my games, and their religion bonus is not all that helpful on higher difficulties where you end up founding religions with less enhancer/founder beliefs available.

 

[RedRover57]

I picked Sweden, but it's probably just because I haven't figured out a strategy to take advantage of their UA and UU's yet.

 

[Securion]

Celts and Sweden feels a bit weak compared to the others, imho.
Celts can be good if Maya and Ethiopia is not in the game. But on harder difficulties those two civs outperform the Celts in getting an early religion quite easily. If no other religious civ is on the board then the Celts can be really nice.
Sweden is dependent on Declaration of Friendships, and that can also be kinda hard on higher difficulties. Sweden is very dependent on AI relations, and we all know how dependable AI relations can be... It can be great, and it can be complete crap playing Sweden.
I voted Sweden, but i could as easily have voted for the Celts.

 

[NukeAJS]

The versatility of the Dutch is probably what saves them, actually. Their trading and the Polder allows them to be quite rich, said riches can be used to field a rather massive army. Also the Sea Beggars are probably the best Naval UU in the game, given how annoying the Privateer can already be. You won't need to be war-mongering; just pick your targets well. At a certain point, the early monetary advantage the Dutch have gained will have been enough to field a huge army without having to worry about denouncing Civs anymore.

I was originally thinking Sweden but not so much anymore. No, my vote is going to Ethiopia. Their ability is nice for turtling up, but it's nothing game-breaking and if you're on the attack it becomes useless. While their building and UU aren't bad per se, they aren't anything special either. Ethiopia just feels bland, and by extent not as good and interesting as the rest. Each of the other Civs have a unique trick or strategy.

Not-So-Honerable mention goes to Byzanthium. If they had a way to generate a tiny bit of extra faith in the early game, they'd be fantastic. Now they don't, and thus get beaten out by the Celts, Mayans and Ethiopians to the first faith, which means that while they will get use of their UA, it's not as much as they'd want. The Dromon is pretty cool, but the Cataphract...meh.

I agree that the sea beggar is good. I personally think the ship of the line is the superior naval unit for the era, but sea beggars are nice when upgraded later.

As for Sweden, the Carolean is just too good for them to be the weakest. Their mounted unit was just weird at first, but once I discovered how to use them, I discovered that they're a pretty good unit, if not cumbersome to use effectively.

I thought nobel prize completely sucked at first until I remembered you can use faith to buy great people. Sweden has a good use for those relatively bad great merchants. Just get the commerce opener and then tech down patronage. Lastly, since civs can no longer vote for themselves in the UN, making friendships with other civs will not just help you win diplomatically, it will make Great people faster, much faster if you can secure several and keep the peace between all of them. And, Voila! you make more great people to give to CSs (provided they're not an engineer or scientist).

Ethiopia is king of being tall. Normally, I would agree with your assessment that Ethiopia is bland, but the AI no longer sits on its thumb while your tall empire completes 4 of 5 SP trees or finishes the Apollo program. In almost every game I've played culturally or scientifically (while tall), the AI has declared on me when it was evident I was close to winning. If there's a run-away civ, Ethiopia's UA and UU are actually able to hold them off provided you don't get nuked .

 

[seasnake]

I can't believe Ethiopia has even one vote. They rock, you can totally skimp on your military and just bust out those Stele and enjoy an early religion and an easily defensible position.

Really it's only Sweden, the +90 is something you'll use 1 or 2 times a game and the bonus depends on getting Declaration of Friendship, which come later, and having multiple friends.

 

[Yngvi]

I voted Sweden; I just can't bring myself to give away GP and while the DoF bonus is nice, I usually end up with two friends tops (I play on Huge).

I'm another one who can't understand why someone would vote for Ethiopia. The Stele alone allows them some very powerful starts. If threatened by a REXing aggressor, pick Goddess of Protection as your pantheon and the city defence policy for tradition and amuse yourself.

The Dutch are great. In my last game I had something like fourteen polders built and traded my luxuries like crazy, picking a religion that gave all happiness (Sacred Waters, Peace Gardens, etc.) The Sea Beggars don't hurt either.

 

[Peacemongerer]

Sweden's is useless in the sense that CS influence has been reduced to almost nothing. 90 influence in the old game was good for 1000-1500 gold depending on the era. While it theoretically is worth even more gold than that now, the AI's ability to coup-spam (I've been hit with FIVE in ONE turn) means they'll likely just steal your spot unless you get a huge influence lead and make a coup impossible. 90 influence is not enough of a gap to do that.

I've also seen the AI try desperately to outbuy you for CSes... I had almost 200 influence with a CS and Hiawatha kept buying influence with gold and we switched places for like 5 consecutive turns or so b4 he failed in a coup and dropped to 0. I got lucky... he was so close it should have been 85% chance of success. That would suck if you were Sweden, wasted a GP and had that coup be successful.

Sweden. You're better-off going with somebody else and winning 2-3 CS quests to get that same influence and likely win multiple CS contests for that same thing.

 

[D0MIN1C]

I'm currently playing as Sweden because they seem like a good Diplo Victory civ. When you go through the Patronage tree, Great Person gifts are excellent as you can easily maintain your relationships with City-States. I don't really need all those Great Merchants anyway... I also don't really have an opinion on which is the worst civ, as I haven't played Gods & Kings much yet

 

[NukeAJS]

And you don't think attacking one ironclad with 8 sea beggars that capture it is overpowered?

The Sea Beggar and Pirate ship is OP, SB even more so do to it's free promotions.

Sound more to me like you want to change the dutchmen into a pure domination civ and then your simply playing the wrong civ.

6v1 is/should be a losing battle anyways. Having them get to move after attacking will make a two-turn battle (at most), a one-turn battle instead. Even 6 to 3, the ironclads (in formation) would probably win that battle on the coast and draw/possibly lose at sea.

I disagree that making the sea beggar better would constitute changing them into a pure domination civ. I will agree that prize ships needs to be changed to a percentage chance though. It's a little ridiculous right now.

The main problem I have with the Netherlands is that they really don't fit well into any of the victory conditions. Diplomacy? Ok they should be trading a lot but CSs still win the day. Domination? sea beggars (upgraded or not) are good, but they just as powerful as a privateer towards other naval units. Also let's face it, privateers are used primarily against other naval units and second against weak island cities. Plus they get ripped apart by decent sized cities with a crossbowman in it. Lastly, someone mentioned their UA can support a large army -- yes. But eventually you're going to be the evil guy and then you can't trade -- basically wasting the entire UA. I'll concede it's good if you only want to start one, maybe two wars though. Cultural? Ummm, polders can feed memorials? Science? I guess this is the best 'cause polders=food=science but marshes just aren't plentiful for this is make a big enough impact and I've never gotten a desert start with them.

 

[NukeAJS]

Sweden's is useless in the sense that CS influence has been reduced to almost nothing. 90 influence in the old game was good for 1000-1500 gold depending on the era. While it theoretically is worth even more gold than that now, the AI's ability to coup-spam (I've been hit with FIVE in ONE turn) means they'll likely just steal your spot unless you get a huge influence lead and make a coup impossible. 90 influence is not enough of a gap to do that.

I've also seen the AI try desperately to outbuy you for CSes... I had almost 200 influence with a CS and Hiawatha kept buying influence with gold and we switched places for like 5 consecutive turns or so b4 he failed in a coup and dropped to 0. I got lucky... he was so close it should have been 85% chance of success. That would suck if you were Sweden, wasted a GP and had that coup be successful.

Sweden. You're better-off going with somebody else and winning 2-3 CS quests to get that same influence and likely win multiple CS contests for that same thing.

I'll agree that coups are broken. For the matter -- prize ships too.

I've learned the best way to avoid coups is to get them happening in CSs that aren't yours. The best way to do this is to get a united front type of alliance going -- everybody you are friends with is friends with each other, and have all of them have an enemy or group of enemies while staying neutral yourself. Neutrality is the key which is interesting because Sweden is the country that has proclaimed neutrality the longest (whether they still are truly neutral is a matter of debate).

 

[NukeAJS]

Not a lot of love for Sweden ...

I'll admit that while the carolean is an amazing unit, it's not suited to neutrality and neither is their unique lancer. It can be pretty hard to stay out of wars once other civs begin mass-mobilizing and having two good units that carry their upgrades with them is a nice insurance plan.

That being said, a unique building that increases GPPs would probably be the most accommodating.

Lastly -- Sweden + educated elite makes for a no-brainer.

 

[Vatras]

I thought about voting for Sweden, but they almost pulled off diplomatic victories two times, so I have to vote for none is really underpowered.

 

[bonafide11]

I guess Ethiopia was chosen as a weakest by a person who havent played them yet.
They are OP during early stages and finishing their religion 1st. They even can outrace Celts with their Stele sometimes.

A monument that gives you +2 faith is simply OP in the game where religion gives you huge benefits.

People on these forums throw the word "OP" around way too liberally. Yes, Ethiopia gives you a nice faith bonus, which makes it easy to found the first religions. How is that overpowered? Finding an early religion in itself does not do that much to guarantee a victory. Its UA and UU both rely on Ethiopia being a small civilization on the defensive and protecting itself, which does not do that much to help it win either. Winning comes from offensive bonuses rather than defensive bonuses. So yeah, it has a nice UB that gives you an edge in religion, but it's far from being "OP," nor are they overpowered as a civ.

Anyway, I didn't vote because I haven't played all of the civs yet. If I had to choose, I'd probably pick Sweden though because I can't see myself giving away great people because I'd rather use them for other things. Gaining influence towards a city-state is nice, but not sure that it offsets losing a great person. I usually am friends with one or maybe two civs at a time per game. If I tried really hard and was being generous and doing everything possible to not anger anyone, maybe I could get 3 DoF for a short part of the game, but I doubt it since it would likely other civs if I'm friends with their enemies. Anyway, that 30% GP growth is nice, but how many more great people would that actually lead to? 2? Then you have to gift them to city-states to make use of that other feature anyway.

Then both of its UU are military units, and they're relatively strong, but to make use of Sweden's UA you want to be passive and not militaristic because then you'll make enemies and have trouble making DoF. So I don't think Sweden has much synergy being its UUs and UA. Now that I think about it, I think I'll vote for them even without playing them because I can't imagine anyone would be worse than them.

 

[avl8]

I vote for the word advantage over that tricky "OP"

Well, in GxK you get massive GP production boost only at Rennesainse via the Leaning tower. This way Sweden +GP boost from every DoF is a good bonus.

Once you go for a Science/Diplomatic victory you have to make a lot of friends. Means a huge GPP bonus with Sweden. Means more great people, which is good for these victories.

And if you are fan of large/huge worlds this bonus start to scale really well. Just imagine 8 DoF = +80GPP bonus as a civ trait. Looks OP for me! Oops! Looks like a nice advantage for me!

 

[Halcyan2]

I'm throwing my vote to the Dutch. Polders are great, but only being allowed on flood plains and marshes make it too infrequent to use unless you get a desert start (which hasn't happen to me yet). Sure they have a marsh start-bias, but an entire UTI being used three times still isn't not enough. Basically, it's a great tile improvement that doesn't get utilized enough. It's like being the Inca and getting two mountains near you except that there are usually far many more mountains than there are marsh tiles. Even if you do get a lot of marsh tiles, you're cursed with marsh tiles until guilds.

Polders are a good improvement but through my three games as the dutch I have only been able to build one in my non-puppeted cities. Their bonus is good early game, but isnt so helpful as the game progresses. The Sea Beggar just has an extra promotion if I am right, which is not so beneficial since I tend to beat down cities with frigates first.

Marsh polders also have another hidden benefit - they are very useful defensively. Build a road on it so the terrain cost is negligible to you. But invading armies that have to deal with a 3 movement cost tile? That's going to really slow things down. Even Keshiks are going to be having trouble against a massive swampland of polders.

I voted for Sweden. Could of voted for Byzantium because early UU naval units are often too early to have a big impact in my games, and their religion bonus is not all that helpful on higher difficulties where you end up founding religions with less enhancer/founder beliefs available.

The Dromon is amazing!

Everyone else has to wait for Compass (Medieval) to get a ranged Naval unit. The dromon can pick off land units (especially melee ones) and can provide a bit of extra umph when attacking cities (especially ones where you can't fit many archers/catapults).

In addition, since they upgrade into Galleas, it means that you have two whole extra eras to gain experience, so that you can get those critical +1 range and logistics promotions by the time you upgrade into Galleas and later Frigates.

 

[Blaskowitz01]

I cant see how people claim that Sweden is a weak civ.
They have two powerful land units in the Renaissance which make them a force to be reckoned with, and they have potentially limitless Great Persons to draw from through declarations of friendship.
You should be thinking of the Netherlands as the weakest.