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Well that's disappointing

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Willem, Oct 4, 2016.

  1. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    Looking at the resources in the game, it appears that they haven't brought back Health as a factor in this version. I thought that was a very good mechanic to have in Civ 4, and losing it was one of the reasons that kept me away from Civ 5.
     
  2. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Now there is a complex system of housing and amenities. It's hard to say how intuitive it is, but it does have a decent interface and it's not a universal entity like Happiness is.

    I recommend you give it a shot before you disregard it.
     
  3. isau

    isau Deity

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    Housing is basically Health by another name.

    Amenities are basically Happiness.

    Basically. Not exactly the same but conceptually it's there.
     
  4. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    Civ5 had some "health" system, but well hidden. It was basically integrated into growth directly, through aqueducts (faster growth), hospitals (more "food", but really more population growth thanks to better health) and medical labs. They could have added a "health" yield that increases growth instead of adding growth directly, but then it would have been complexity for the sake of complexity rather than a meaningful feature.

    Now, "happiness" is local again and renamed "amenities". Under a purely local happiness system, it's hard to implement health directly in a way that's both different and interesting. In a game, when 2 features basically achieve the exact same result, one of them is useless. Random plagues have no place in a strategy game like Civ. It's ok in a sandbox city builders game, but not in Civ. I think they used "amenities" instead of happiness purposefully to be more global and include thing that don't necessarily relate to happiness but more generally improve one's living conditions. As such, access to health could be considered one of those amenities.
     
    Krajzen and Fierro like this.
  5. Tatran

    Tatran Deity

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    Getting high populated cities like in civ 5 will certainly be a challenge.
    I'm not sure what will be the best distance between cities, but 3 hexes isn't it.
     
  6. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    Mentioned already, but really, Housing serves pretty much the exact same functionality as Health in civ4.
     
  7. Haggbart

    Haggbart King

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    I like how housing includes different stuff that are needed to support a large population, like fresh water, sewers, farms, fishing boats and so on and mainly influences growth.

    While amenities are stuff that people would prefer to have access to, like luxury resources and entertainment district/buildings and mainly influences efficiency.

    Those are two of the systems in cVI I was sold on right away, and while it reminds me of cIV happiness/health, it's a refreshing take. For example how amenities serve a limited number of cities, and how you can settle one tile of a fresh water source and use the aquaduct to connect it. That's a great idea, kudos to the devs!
     
  8. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    I would really like it if food resources (rice, wheat, cows etc) were to become a resource you could trade.....a la Civ4......with food diversity contributing to your housing cap.
     
  9. Biz_

    Biz_ Prince

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    health was kind of underutilized in civ4

    it was present and in-your-face from the very start of the game, but it had almost no impact on match outcomes
     
  10. Balkans

    Balkans Warlord

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    Health was rarely an issue in civ iv, to be honest, maybe if you were in jungle or in the middle of flood plains, but generally it wasn't too important. It would be cool to have health metric, but there are new ones that imitate that kind of metric that controls growth of population.
     
  11. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Indeed, the Civ VI version is much harsher than Civ IVs. (+2 housing needed to stay at normal growth rate; 50% cut in pop growth from being at +1 housing; 75% cut in pop growth from simply having the numbers of citizens in the city equal to the housing. :eek: ) Contrast Civ IV where having equal numbers of healthy & unhealth was 100%, and unhealthiness beyond that simply increased food cost by 1 each.
     
  12. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Which is yet another reason why Civ4 has taken on this false mythological status - most elements in that game were not very good but apparently Civ6 (and Civ5) have to be judged against such elements (e.g., 'disappointed' that we are not getting good elements back) when in both games, they improved/replaced/altered them for the better.
     
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  13. Biz_

    Biz_ Prince

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    health adds some thematic flavor to the game without any real downside though

    just because it wasn't as important as other resources doesn't mean it was actively bad for the game like some of the other criticisms

    it's kind of like upgrading your palace in earlier civ games. it doesn't ruin anything if you don't care about it, but some people like it
     
  14. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

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    Housing will be Immensely punitive. Think out-loud to yourself how to get a city up to 14 housing capacity before Neighborhoods, and see how far you get... Whether the 'H' is for housing, or for for Health, it is a mad-dog factor on city growth. And the Micro of IV will be back in that as soon as you hit that housing cap, and see no immediate way to increase it, you'll be going production tiles, rather than juicy ones we got used to in BNW (obviously, there was some of this when you reached global happiness cap, but good players constantly planned for this, at least to never stop growing the capital). You can't import housing like luxuries, and it's very hard to get before late game.

    If you want "Health" to matter as much as luxuries/amenities, you cannot be disappointed at all in VI. Beach has crippled set-and-forget high growth. It is gone.
     
  15. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    Fresh Water, Granary, Aqueduct, Encampment with Barracks, Harbour with Lighthouse and 4 Farms/Plantations... punitive as all hell : (
    You can probably skip Harbour or Encampment as you will get 14 without one of them but you really want 15 Pop for the 5th District...Of course the inspiration for urbanisation(the gateway to neighbourhoods) is 15 pop, funny that :)
     
  16. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    Could you list those elements?
     
  17. Haggbart

    Haggbart King

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    Don't forget there's a social policy that gives two housing for cities with 3 specialty districts, as well as a religious building that gives two housing. Sewers also provide two housing without taking a tile, which may prove more useful than first suspected.
     
  18. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    Sewers will be incredibly useful, but i dont think they come before neighbourhoods. That social policy will help of course, allowing you to forgo Encampment and/or Harbour, as will the religious building but you cant exactly bank on it. Either way 15 pop seems to me the expected cap on population before neighbourhoods, which is what late industrialism? Compared to Civ5 where you could easily hit 25 pop by Industrialism it is obvious that the uber-growth game is gone. This is of course settling on fresh water or within one tile of fresh water/mountain.

    One thing that i have noticed from the Letsplays is lots of players banging their head against the Housing Wall. I think food itself is going to be greatly devalued to the point that multiple Food resources wont really be needed or desired, at least in the early-mid game. I think you are going to have to map your housing increases with your growth speed to make sure you cap out(so as to not waste too much time at low pop) but not too early either. I am looking forward to deciphering the ideal High Pop strategy for the max pop games. I think, without cheating and going either Kongo or India(both have awesome housing boosts), it will require a very delicate strategy to matching Growth and Housing Boosts and the Tech and Culture yield required to maximise the growth time to hit max Pop Caps. I am thinking anything over 50 will be tough to get without going Kongo or India
     
  19. Haggbart

    Haggbart King

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    They're at the same place era-wise but in two different trees. So that would depend on your scientific progress relative to your culture progress.
     
  20. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    1. Found on a river (for fresh water)
    2. Build a Granary (+2)
    3. Build fishing boats / farms / (plantation?) before you actually work them (just for the housing bonuses) : 0.5 each
    4. Build an Aqueduct (+2)
    5. If coastal build a Harbor / otherwise an Encampment & Barracks (+1 housing)

    If this is the capital, it's probably 14 housing right there; but I think there's other level 1 district improvements giving +1 housing.
    Even if not, the +2 sewer is bound to send it above 14.
     

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