Were Ancient Macedonians Greek?

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Franlin Waters, re post #372

Look up: εἰρωνεία
Especially during the most recent unimportant 1500 years.

If you read my comment you'll se that I only quoted biographies (that I dare anyone to dispute),
debating that the ancient scientists can actually be called "scientists".

Nothing came out of my mind (sadly this is what you do).


My friend the greek word "εἰρωνεία" is not even close to enough, in order to describe (let me put it politely) the rubbish you're claiming throughout all this thread
I'm talking of uneducated idiocies such as;
-the greeks are sub-saharans :lol::lol::lol:,
-the greeks are not indigenous in Greece :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: for another was there before them 10,000 y.a. or in PANGEA [for God's sake man...] :lol::lol::lol::lol:,
- the ancient macedons were Slavs :lol::lol::lol:,
-the ancient macedons were speaking slavic :lol::lol::lol:,
and all (every-single-one-of-them) the other nonsenses of FYROM's propaganda,
that YOU reproduce here, attempting to effect us with their IDIOCY, LACK OF EDUCATION AND LACK OF ANY RATIONAL ARGUMENT, as if it's an adhesive disease.

..And that's not "εἰρωνεία", you claimed these rubbish and many more.
If you want some "εἰρωνεία" for what you claimed, just let me know...

Actually,
A good explenation for what you're claiming, is that you yourself are a scientist who's trying to BEAM US to a parallel univerese,
in which all of your claims about the Slavs of this universe who self-declared themselves as "macedonians" and Alexander's III "descendants" (while having a 10 centuries historical gap from him, for God's sake),
in this parallel universe are true..

In this universe that we live in, your claims are rubbish.

So, come on "...beam us up Scotty..." :lol:

("εἰρωνεία", couldn't help it)



According to Franklin Waters people who lived in what is now Greece before Greek migrations, and who didn't speak Greek, were also Greeks.
Only in your imagination we (you and me) talked about this issue, and I claimed that!



Your compatriots Sitalkas and Frankley Waters don't quite understand how ethnos and nation work.

Though we (you and me) never argued about this...

Do you know???

I seriously doubt that you know, while you claimed the above uneducated trash, that were inspired by propably a "Xena, the Warrior Princess" episode.

Do you know for examle that the word "ethnos" in ancient Greece, had a completely DIFFERENT meaning than in modern terms,
and furthermore how the ancient greek word "ethnos" has MISTAKENLY been translated to "nation" by western scholars???

Of course you don't...



Yet another example;
The ancient greek word "φιλέλλην" in ancient Greece meant "patriot", therefor a Greek who was a patriot,
and nowadays in modern Greek language it means someone who is not Greek, but he's an admirer of the greek civilization to the point that he's willing to and eventually does help the greeks in a cause. Example: Lord Byron.

The usage of this word in modern Greek language, is etymologically a lingustic reloan from the west and the western scholars of the M/A, who misinterpeted the ancient greek word "φιλέλλην", and who sadly because of the Ottoman occupation of Greece, wrote their disquisitions without contradiction from the only ones who could do that.

Examples of such misintepretations are hundreds.
 
Of course you don't.

Of course I do, I even explained the difference between ethnos and nation in another thread.

But it is foolish of you to think that loans from Greek have the same meaning in all modern languages.

the rubbish you're claiming throughout all this thread
I'm talking of uneducated idiocies such as;
-the greeks are sub-saharans ,
-the greeks are not indigenous in Greece for another was there before them 10,000 y.a.
-the ancient macedons were Slavs ,
-the ancient macedons were speaking slavic ,

I did not claim any of these things except for discussing how arbitrary is the term "indigenous".

You mentioned a study about Sub-Saharan Greeks, I did not even comment on that.

I also did not claim anywhere that Ancient Macedonians were Slavic-speakers.
 
Of course I do, I even explained the difference between ethnos and nation in another thread.
But it is foolish of you to think that loans from Greek have the same meaning in all modern languages.
I did not claim any of these things except for discussing how arbitrary is the term "indigenous".
You mentioned a study about Sub-Saharan Greeks, I did not even comment on that.
I also did not claim anywhere that Ancient Macedonians were Slavic-speakers.


You asked me before why I quoted older posts of yours...
That is to remind you that you didn't just presented us all of FYROM's propaganda, you uphold their idotic, childish arguments, supported and attempted to reinforce them with every creepy detail.

Let me remind you again;

modern area of the Republic of Macedonia WAS called Macedonia already in Ancient times
PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE


have ancestors who lived in Aegean Macedonia

NON-EXISTING LAND (but only to the imagination of the nowadays self declared "macedonians"

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE

As you can see, Greeks cluster most closely with "Yugoslavians"

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE



It should be noted that Macedonians are genetically closer to Greeks than the rest of Yugoslavians.

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE,
proved even by their own Skopje Foresincs Medicine Institute, they cluster with Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians, while Greeks are close to identical (genetically) to southern Italians mostly Tuscans (with Fst of 0,0005).

Clustering closely with Bosnians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Eastern Croats is hardly a proof for being genetically Slavs

Come again??? All Slavs come from the same stock, nad they are taken as an ETHNIC GROUP.
Also "Assimilation" is besides the point when one examines the migration events in a region.

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE


both Vardar Slavs (Macedonians) and Bulgarians are genetically close to Ancient Balkanians.

This was never the case
in the scientific community of geneticists, historians nor anthropologists.
PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE


The research which gave the results of the image you presented (right above), regarding the frequency of the R1 haplogroup, in the case of France (for a start) used a sample of people of less than 100 individuals, and this while the population of this country was on 1 January 2013, 66,394,000.

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE



STILL YOU CONTINUE


So I wouldn't be surprised if many Macedonian Slavs are genetically descendants of Ancient Macedonians

a. this is only an assumption and for some a wish. History recorded things differently.
b. I'll remind you again of their own 6-year-long "Skopje Forensics Medicine Institute" research, which cluster the self-declared "Macedonians" of today, with the Serbs, the Bulgarians and the Croats. They never denied their Slavic origins.
c. There's no ancient "Macedonian" gene. CONFIRMED
d. The only thing we solved today and beyond any doubt regarding this region, is that the greeks are residents of this region for three thousand years.


PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE



After all these I TENDED TO BELIEVE IT'S YOUR WISH TOO... STILL YOU CONTINUE


Are Macedonians denying their Slavic origins though? I don't recall this.

Yes they do.
That's the FIRST you should have known starting this thread.
Or maybe you already know it. I don't know... To use your own words "this sounds too obviously hilarious".

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE


Ancient Macedonians were Slavic too, like modern ones.

This is a joke. Historically, culturally, genetically or any other way you see it. It is sad to even reproduce it...

The 2001 Arnaiz-Villena research besides "proving" the nowadays Slavs that self-declared themselves as "Macedonians" are direct descendants of the ancient Macedons (very convenient for FYROM's 10-year old at the time idiotic propaganda - of course no macedonian gene exists), it was also "proving" that;
Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans (also very convenient for FYROM's 10-year old at the time idiotic propaganda); and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. :lol:

The responce of the scientific community of geneticists to that research was total.
This is a paper by three of the most respected ones (Title; "Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit");
http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1038/415115b

Note also that the editor of the most respected magazine on the field which published this research ("Human Immunology") apologized publicly and asked from the subscribers of his magazine to ignore the article in question or to PHYSICALLY REMOVE THE PAPERS FROM THE MAGAZINE.
You understand what this means... right?

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE



By now I wonder;
How come you keep reproducing only and just FYROM's arguments, to the point that you are even reproducing long dropped arguments, that are dropped (and LITERALLY DECOMPOSED) not only by the scientific community AS A WHOLE, but even by the Skopje nationalistic administration itself?

Is there a rational answer to this question?

(besides the uneducated guy who... told you those unhistorical IDIOCIES that refer to a parallel-universe, and who you seem to understood too well (I have to admit) and incorporated everything he idiotically claimed... Sorry but by reading your detailed posts and the explanation to that ("...I met a guy in a forum and he claimed..."), sounds and seems like this guy actually infused these things in to you.
To use your own words again "this sounds too obviously hilarious".)



AND YOU STILL CONTINUE (...what an answer !!!)



I just quoted what a Macedonian guy claimed.

If he was to tell you that he came from Mars, would we now be talking that Marsians do exist or not?
And what about the creepy details you're presenting here?? Did he infused them into you???


STILL YOU CONTINUE



Ancient Macedonians were Proto-Slavic and that Slavs originated in the Balkans

There's NO HISTORIAN, NOR UNIVERSITY, NOR ARCHAEOLOGICAL INSTITUTION, NOR ANTHROPOLOGIST on Planet Earth to claim such idiotic UNHISTORICAL thing.

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE

So far you reproduced ALL IDIOTIC, unhistorical, outrageous LIES of FYROM's propaganda, and I'm only quoting PARTS of what you claimed.

...and you continue




Do you know what this video is and stands for??
Let me enlighten you...

The people of this country who are Slavs and migrated in this area the 7th century AD, are claiming that they're Alexander's descendants and that Macedonia is devided, with a large part of it comeing under Greek sovereignty after the Balkan Wars the year 1913.
Notice that the map shown above, includes 4-5 Greek districts including those of Thessaloniki and Chalkidiki among other regions.

Yet the undeniable truth is;
1. This country which was formed in 1991, is settled on the region of Paeonia by 100%, a region different and separated from the ancient greek kingdom of Macedonia, that got conquered by Philip II at 354-355 BC, and which soon it got abondoned by the Macedons (which explains the ZERO macedonian archaeological findings in this country), and thus it was NEVER EVER part of the kingdom of Macedonia.

Unless of course one considers that Paeonia by being conquered by the Macedons, it became Macedonia and it will CONTINUE being considered as Macedonia simply because for some BRΙEF time period in history, it got conquered by the Macedons.
And what about the others who conquered this region?
What about the Romans, the Slavs, the Ottomans???

EVEN if we accept this, what would be the case of all the other regions that got conquered by the Macedons???
Can the Egyptians call themselves today "Macedonians", and rename their country to "New Republic of Macedonia"???

And what about the regions the Roman Empire conquered or the Ottoman Empire??
Can they call themselves (allow me) "Italians" today and their country "Republic of Italy"??

Would this be historically, culturally or any other way accurate and accepted?


Of course anyone can call himself as he wants!!
But what happens when after the "naming" (or renaming in this case) claims of any kind follow(in this case teritorial claims)??


These radical-right nationalists today are outrageously claiming that Greece "stole" part of their land, refering to original ancient greek kingdom of Macedonia settled for 3000 years in Greece, after they renamed their land from Paeonia to "Macedonia" !!

The question is; Can one devide two things from each other, that are ALREADY by definition separate??

I (and every historian, anthropologist, mathematician, physicist and every University and Archaeological Institution) don't think so...
A politician on the other hand could do that, after taking the lolipop from a child's hand.

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE


AND YOU CONTINUE FYROM's propaganda;

So Slavs - no matter how we call them - are correct that Greece deprived them of their lands, and also of access to the Sea.
After 1913 you took their territories - areas where they lived - and deported them.

Greece never took anything from the Slavs.
Greece took back the ancient Greek kingdom of Macedonia, which was taken from the Romans (with greeks inhabidating it), the from the Slavs (with greeks inhabidating it), then returned to Greek hands as "Christianized Roman Empire of the Greek Nation" (with greeks inhabidating it), then taken by the Ottomans (with greeks inhabidating it), and finally the Greeks took it back FROM THE OTTOMANS.


PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE

You're unstopable;



In Aegean Macedonia - which is now Northern Greece - Slavs were more numerous than Greeks

This is IRRELATIVE. The Slavs, the Turks, the Bulgarians were occupiers. Northern Greece were in Greek hands for 1000 years before the Ottomans, and for 2000 years before the Slavs (aprox.)

...And let me remind you AGAIN this;
There's no place named "Aegean Macedonia".
It was the Nazis the early 1940s who named this region after this name, who they were planning to pass it to their at the time allies the Yugoslavs as they did gave greek territories to all their allies.
There's no place or term with this name in Global Geography NOR in Global History.


PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE

AND YOU KEPT GOING;


And why today Muslim Turks are the only officially recognized minority in Greece, while Slavs are not ???

There's no Slavic minority in Greece, unless one can call minority a group of less than 2000 people... which none can!!
Also in Greece there's muslim minority. Not minority of turks.
Unless one can call the Greeks, the Irish, the Italians inhabidants of the U.S. of America, minorities... which none can !!

You're forgeting EU.
You think if there was such case, FYROM wouldn't made the best out of this through EU??? THEY CAN'T coz there is no such case of Slavic -or "macedonian" as they self-declare it- minority!!!

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE



BTW - we don't know this, because Greek population censuses don't count minorities, except for Muslim Turks.
(refering to a supposedly slavic minority in Greece)

Greece don't count minorities?? Is this a JOKE?
Wrong... You're forgetting EU, and generally you present things as fitting you my friend.
I don't see why you don't get it... AGAIN;
In Greece there's a small muslim minority. Not minority of turks.
Unless one can call the Greeks, the Irish, the Italians inhabidants of the U.S. of America, minorities... which none can !!
You think if there was such case, FYROM wouldn't made the best out of this through EU??? THEY CAN'T coz there is no such case of Slavic -or "macedonian" as they self-declare it- minority!!!

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE

AND YOU KEPT GOING


So you can call Greeks in Macedonia a minority, but you can't call Slavs in Greece a minority ???

Better stop playing with words. As I told you;
There's no Slavic minority in Greece, unless one can call minority a group of less than 2000 people... which none can!!
Do not forget EU which is always watching.
You think if there was such case, FYROM wouldn't made the best out of this through EU??? THEY CAN'T coz there is no such case of Slavic -or "macedonian" as they self-declare it- minority!!!

PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE



There is no any clear evidence that Ancient Macedonian language was Greek. Alexander the Great learned Koine Greek, but that was "English of his time".


So, Soooooo terribly WRONG !!!

Ever heard of the "Pella Curse Tablet"??
Early 4th BC, BEFORE Koine Greek, written from a common Macedon woman (found in a poor grave),
IN DORIC GREEK;


[ΘΕΤΙ]ΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥ-
[ΝΑΙΚ]ΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ
[ΤΟΙΣ] ΔΑΙΜΟΣΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΚΑ ΕΓΩ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΔΙΕΛΕΞΑΙΜΙ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΟΙΗΝ ΠΑΛΕΙΝ ΑΝΟΡΟΞΑΣΑ
[ΤΟΚΑ] ΓΑΜΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΑ ΠΡΟΤΕΡΟΝ ΔΕ ΜΗ ΜΗ ΓΑΡ ΛΑΒΟΙ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΑ ΑΛΛ᾽ Η ΕΜΕ
[ΕΜΕ Δ]Ε ΣΥΝΚΑΤΑΓΗΡΑΣΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΙ ΚΑΙ ΜΗΔΕΜΙΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΙΚΕΤΙΣ ΥΜΩΝ ΓΙΝΟ-
[ΜΑΙ ΦΙΛ]ΑΝ ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΦΙΛ[ΟΙ] ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΡΗΜΑ ΑΛΛΑ
[ΤΑΥΤ]Α ΦΥΛΑΣΣΕΤΕ ΕΜΙΝ ΟΠΩΣ ΜΗ ΓΙΝΗΤΑΙ ΤΑ[Υ]ΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΚΑ ΚΑΚΩΣ ΘΕΤΙΜΑ ΑΠΟΛΗΤΑΙ
[....]ΑΛ[-].ΥΝΜ .. ΕΣΠΛΗΝ ΕΜΟΣ ΕΜΕ Δ᾽ ΕΥ[Δ]ΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΚΑΙ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΑΝ ΓΕΝΕΣΤΑΙ
[-]ΤΟ[.].[-].[..]..Ε.Ε.Ω[?]Α.[.]Ε..ΜΕΓΕ [-]


PROVED MISTAKEN, possible intentional LIE




SO AGAIN;
And you kept on presenting ONLY, EXCLUSIVELLY FYROM's arguments and STILL CONTINUE to provide all of those unhistorical, outargeous, disreputable, and HILLARIOUS to all scientists who are in the fields of history, anthropology, and genetics arguments.
THAT'S ALL OF THEM !

I find it at least insulting, that after all this conversation we had, YOU KEEP doing circles, reintroducing previously DROPPED arguments,
as brand new that the scientific community failed to answer.

No offense but THIS IS AN ILLUSION of yours and of your country's.
...And it's your country to blame for these things, not you...


At least can you please answer a question, since YOU NEVER ANSWERED ONE...

If you're not from FYROM, how come you reproduce EVERY IDIOCY, with every creepy detail they claim that made them an international joke??
AND Why you really started this thread?
To present these trash??
(actually these are three questions, but I'm curious for an answer...):lol:
 
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