Were Soviet Tanks Ever Better Than Western Tanks?

the relentless aerial attack on Germany was not hitting so many things in the beginning , ı would say Germans had a much better aerial defence set-up than many , you are laughing at Treibflugel only because you haven't seen the one the Spitfire people did .
 
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after a little search , here is Supermarine 4040 idea from1944 , one scrambling with its 2500 hp Griffon while the other can't ... Small picture , by Jozef Gatial ...

sup4040.jpg
 
This question is hard to answer because tanks are just one component of a war effort and are often tailored for their country's particular needs, armor has been pretty classified stuff for decades, and there hasn't been much massed armored warfare since WWII.

However, I'd still say that overall, the answer would be "Yes."

In the West, the value of tanks has constantly been questioned, with each new anti-tank weapon raising fears that the tank was becoming obsolete. Russia, as a whole, seems to have always had greater faith in them, probably due to being a land power with land enemies in open terrain, and it shows. Many new major breakthroughs in tank design since the 1940s have come from Russia. They may not have invented sloped armor, but the T-34 was arguably the first mass-produced tank designed around sloped armor that was meant to repel anti-tank fire. Russia pioneered mass-produced autoloaders, and composite armor, and active protection systems (APS). Its tanks have consistently had firepower and armor out of proportion to their small and more easily transported size compared to Western tanks. Granted, that armor, small profile, high firepower, and low weight are achieved by sacrificing ergonomics and gun depression, but Russian doctrine works around these flaws because of their generally physically smaller crews and their offensive strategy that doesn't need as much gun depression.

When the IS-3 came out, for example, it outgunned anything the West had, and had exceptionally good frontal armor, all with an astonishingly low profile and weight. Unlike the King Tiger, it was mass-produced, with plenty of fuel for its units. This was at the cost of a very low rate of fire, and I don't know about any other of its sacrifices, but overall the West would have had a hard time defeating it with mere Shermans and early Centurions in the mid- to late-'40s.

The T-54, as mentioned, also greatly outdid the West. While Britain and the US steadily tweaked the Centurion and Patton designs, the Soviets had finally almost perfected the promising T-44 design with a new vehicle able to shoot through the armor of the M47s, M48s, and Centurions while shrugging off their fire - and it was light, compact, affordable, and mass-produced! From the mid-'50s until the early '60s the West was outmatched. The L7 105mm gun allowed the M60 and improved Centurion marks to defeat it, and the indifferent T-62 design succeeded but never replaced the T-55 (a product-improved T-54).

But again, Russia arguably shot past the West with the innovative T-64A. Sure, the early T-64 had teething issues and never became the dominant Russian tank, but the T-64A improved the firepower and other items, and started an unbroken tradition of Russian tanks with autoloaders. The T-72 took that and made a roughly comparable but more affordable design, and in the T-72A, a production tank with composite armor was introduced.

The West suddenly caught up starting in 1979 with the new Abrams and Leopard 2. Russia got the excellent T-72B, and the Abrams and Leopard were upgraded and joined by the Challenger, and so on, and so forth.

It must be noted that the often-referenced massacre of T-72 variants in Iraq by the Coalition in 1990-91 was incredibly lopsided for a great number of reasons. The T-72 models used were awful. Their leadership was awful. Their ammunition was awful. Their crews were awful. They were massacred and demoralized from the air before being wiped out on the ground. But this isn't the fault of the basic T-72 design at all. Warsaw Pact forces with a comparable number of T-72Bs would have done far better, and we've all seen what happened to Iraqi and Saudi Abrams tanks when fighting ISIS and the Houthis. Good designs in bad hands fail. Bad designs in bad hands fail horrifically.

And now we have the T-14. It's too early to say whether it's a good or great design, but overall I'm impressed with the Armata concept. It takes most major advancements in tank design over the last few decades and incorporates them from the start rather than as add-ons, and it does this at a manageable weight and in a mostly common hull for an MBT, an HIFV, an SPH, and an ARV. One of the biggest issues with existing MBT families is that they've mostly pretty much hit their growth potential. The originally 60-ton Abrams and Leopard 2 designs have grown massively with age and upgrades and between their suspensions and transport infrastructure, more weight is not really an option. The overall disappointing and overrated Challenger 2 is even heavier, and it's barely been upgraded in comparison. Russia has pushed the T-72 and T-80 designs almost as far as it can; there's no real room for them to improve passive armor any further, and since the Burlak turret for the T-90M was rejected, they won't be getting the longest rod penetrators (yes, yes, snicker) that they could, or hard-kill APSs, most likely. There haven't been any great breakthroughs in armor design in decades, and again, more weight isn't an option, so if you want to improve protection, you have to have an APS, an innovative rearrangement of the layout, or both.

So the Russians did both. The T-14 is designed from the very beginning to use a soft-kill as well as a hard-kill APS, plus advanced ERA, plus a new layout. Putting the crew in an armored capsule in the hull and leaving the unmanned turret less well-armored should allow a good increase in armor without a major weight increase. This layered defense also makes it really hard for most ATGMs and even KE rounds to defeat the T-14, at least in theory and from the front. The T-14 has plenty of room for growth, both because it's new and because it's such a big boi. Big enough to fit longer KE rounds in the vertical autoloader, which should increase armor penetration. The T-15 looks great for inserting infantry into heavily contested spaces, too.

Of course, this design didn't come from nowhere - decades of Russian prototypes, especially in the 1990s, paved the way, and the American TTB (Tank Test Bed) had a similarly unmanned turret. And the unmanned turret would prevent the crew from observing the surroundings from out of the turret hatches, which will probably handicap situational awareness. It has 360-degree camera coverage, which I'm sure will only improve in quality with time if developed, but this driving around entirely enclosed and relying on cameras is something very new and will require some work and getting used to. Some American tankers interviewed on it said that was a serious problem, but frankly, without new armor materials, unmanned turrets are the only way to improve passive armor without letting the weight get out of hand.
 
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This question is hard to answer because tanks are just one component of a war effort and are often tailored for their country's particular needs, armor has been pretty classified stuff for decades, and there hasn't been much massed armored warfare since WWII.

However, I'd still say that overall, the answer would be "Yes."

In the West, the value of tanks has constantly been questioned, with each new anti-tank weapon raising fears that the tank was becoming obsolete. Russia, as a whole, seems to have always had greater faith in them, probably due to being a land power with land enemies in open terrain, and it shows. Many new major breakthroughs in tank design since the 1940s have come from Russia. They may not have invented sloped armor, but the T-34 was arguably the first mass-produced tank designed around sloped armor that was meant to repel anti-tank fire. Russia pioneered mass-produced autoloaders, and composite armor, and active protection systems (APS). Its tanks have consistently had firepower and armor out of proportion to their small and more easily transported size compared to Western tanks. Granted, that armor, small profile, high firepower, and low weight are achieved by sacrificing ergonomics and gun depression, but Russian doctrine works around these flaws because of their generally physically smaller crews and their offensive strategy that doesn't need as much gun depression.

When the IS-3 came out, for example, it outgunned anything the West had, and had exceptionally good frontal armor, all with an astonishingly low profile and weight. Unlike the King Tiger, it was mass-produced, with plenty of fuel for its units. This was at the cost of a very low rate of fire, and I don't know about any other of its sacrifices, but overall the West would have had a hard time defeating it with mere Shermans and early Centurions in the mid- to late-'40s.

The T-54, as mentioned, also greatly outdid the West. While Britain and the US steadily tweaked the Centurion and Patton designs, the Soviets had finally almost perfected the promising T-44 design with a new vehicle able to shoot through the armor of the M47s, M48s, and Centurions while shrugging off their fire - and it was light, compact, affordable, and mass-produced! From the mid-'50s until the early '60s the West was outmatched. The L7 105mm gun allowed the M60 and improved Centurion marks to defeat it, and the indifferent T-62 design succeeded but never replaced the T-55 (a product-improved T-54).

But again, Russia arguably shot past the West with the innovative T-64A. Sure, the early T-64 had teething issues and never became the dominant Russian tank, but the T-64A improved the firepower and other items, and started an unbroken tradition of Russian tanks with autoloaders. The T-72 took that and made a roughly comparable but more affordable design, and in the T-72A, a production tank with composite armor was introduced.

The West suddenly caught up starting in 1979 with the new Abrams and Leopard 2. Russia got the excellent T-72B, and the Abrams and Leopard were upgraded and joined by the Challenger, and so on, and so forth.

It must be noted that the often-referenced massacre of T-72 variants in Iraq by the Coalition in 1990-91 was incredibly lopsided for a great number of reasons. The T-72 models used were awful. Their leadership was awful. Their ammunition was awful. Their crews were awful. They were massacred and demoralized from the air before being wiped out on the ground. But this isn't the fault of the basic T-72 design at all. Warsaw Pact forces with a comparable number of T-72Bs would have done far better, and we've all seen what happened to Iraqi and Saudi Abrams tanks when fighting ISIS and the Houthis. Good designs in bad hands fail. Bad designs in bad hands fail horrifically.

And now we have the T-14. It's too early to say whether it's a good or great design, but overall I'm impressed with the Armata concept. It takes most major advancements in tank design over the last few decades and incorporates them from the start rather than as add-ons, and it does this at a manageable weight and in a mostly common hull for an MBT, an HIFV, an SPH, and an ARV. One of the biggest issues with existing MBT families is that they've mostly pretty much hit their growth potential. The originally 60-ton Abrams and Leopard 2 designs have grown massively with age and upgrades and between their suspensions and transport infrastructure, more weight is not really an option. The overall disappointing and overrated Challenger 2 is even heavier, and it's barely been upgraded in comparison. Russia has pushed the T-72 and T-80 designs almost as far as it can; there's no real room for them to improve passive armor any further, and since the Burlak turret for the T-90M was rejected, they won't be getting the longest rod penetrators (yes, yes, snicker) that they could, or hard-kill APSs, most likely. There haven't been any great breakthroughs in armor design in decades, and again, more weight isn't an option, so if you want to improve protection, you have to have an APS, an innovative rearrangement of the layout, or both.

So the Russians did both. The T-14 is designed from the very beginning to use a soft-kill as well as a hard-kill APS, plus advanced ERA, plus a new layout. Putting the crew in an armored capsule in the hull and leaving the unmanned turret less well-armored should allow a good increase in armor without a major weight increase. This layered defense also makes it really hard for most ATGMs and even KE rounds to defeat the T-14, at least in theory and from the front. The T-14 has plenty of room for growth, both because it's new and because it's such a big boi. Big enough to fit longer KE rounds in the vertical autoloader, which should increase armor penetration. The T-15 looks great for inserting infantry into heavily contested spaces, too.

Of course, this design didn't come from nowhere - decades of Russian prototypes, especially in the 1990s, paved the way, and the American TTB (Tank Test Bed) had a similarly unmanned turret. And the unmanned turret would prevent the crew from observing the surroundings from out of the turret hatches, which will probably handicap situational awareness. It has 360-degree camera coverage, which I'm sure will only improve in quality with time if developed, but this driving around entirely enclosed and relying on cameras is something very new and will require some work and getting used to. Some American tankers interviewed on it said that was a serious problem, but frankly, without new armor materials, unmanned turrets are the only way to improve passive armor without letting the weight get out of hand.

IS3 was one if those tanks that looked great on paper and parade grounds.

Unlike a lot of other heavy tanks it did kind of work perhaps so brief window it might have been good or good enough.

T-55 to T-64 was where I said in the OP they might have beaten the west.

M60's using the L7 dumped on the Iraqi T-72s as well and it wasn't really a modern tank either.

Israelis using western armor also dumped all over the Soviet tanks that were decent at the time unlike Iraqi T-72s.

That's when things like computer assisted fire mattered, I don't think the Soviets even had the rough equivalent to around 1989.

That's where the Soviet designs became outright bad before the Abrams even came out.

T-15 armata looks interesting it's not a miracle tank though and won't encounter a western tank probably ever. T-15 has thin turret armor but yeah the crew is safer than every other Russian tank.

The gun can theoretically penetrate an Abrams though it's a crapshoot even for the upgraded T-72s.
 
T-14 is a paper tiger though, they only made like 50-100?
 
T-14 is a paper tiger though, they only made like 50-100?
Presumably Russia is operating on the same principles Japan does with its weapons program* - once they know they have the capacity to mass produce them (insofar as mass production is a meaningful term for highly sophisticated pieces of machinery), they only need a handful for ironing out the bugs, training, and showing off should Georgia be stupid enough to attack Russia again. Should Russia expect an actual high intensity mechanized conflict, they would be able to ramp up production.

*That's why Japan spends so much money building local (and often inferior) version of US military equipment. Instead of just buying our fighters, tanks, or warships which they easily could under the defense treaty, Japan collaborates with the US to create domestic versions. Japan knows that eventually the defense treaty will fray, so they want to capacity to fully remilitarize within a decade.
 
IS3 was one if those tanks that looked great on paper and parade grounds.

Unlike a lot of other heavy tanks it did kind of work perhaps so brief window it might have been good or good enough.

T-55 to T-64 was where I said in the OP they might have beaten the west.

M60's using the L7 dumped on the Iraqi T-72s as well and it wasn't really a modern tank either.

Israelis using western armor also dumped all over the Soviet tanks that were decent at the time unlike Iraqi T-72s.

That's when things like computer assisted fire mattered, I don't think the Soviets even had the rough equivalent to around 1989.

That's where the Soviet designs became outright bad before the Abrams even came out.

T-15 armata looks interesting it's not a miracle tank though and won't encounter a western tank probably ever. T-15 has thin turret armor but yeah the crew is safer than every other Russian tank.

The gun can theoretically penetrate an Abrams though it's a crapshoot even for the upgraded T-72s.
Almost all of these examples you cite are from awful Arab militaries getting trashed by better-trained and better-led armies. We never did see the Warsaw Pact use its best against the West, thankfully.

Russian tanks have had fire control systems for a very long time. Even the T-72A had an electronic one. The T-72B improved this and the stabilizer.

T-14 is a paper tiger though, they only made like 50-100?

Presumably Russia is operating on the same principles Japan does with its weapons program* - once they know they have the capacity to mass produce them (insofar as mass production is a meaningful term for highly sophisticated pieces of machinery), they only need a handful for ironing out the bugs, training, and showing off should Georgia be stupid enough to attack Russia again. Should Russia expect an actual high intensity mechanized conflict, they would be able to ramp up production.

*That's why Japan spends so much money building local (and often inferior) version of US military equipment. Instead of just buying our fighters, tanks, or warships which they easily could under the defense treaty, Japan collaborates with the US to create domestic versions. Japan knows that eventually the defense treaty will fray, so they want to capacity to fully remilitarize within a decade.
Few T-14s have been made, and the Russian army doesn't seem interested in many more. This is partly due to budgetary issues - it's expensive to make so many new tanks, and for under $1 million a tank they can just modernize their T-72Bs to a T-72B3 model 2016 standard, or even a T-72B3M, and they already have thousands of those, so upgrades are by far the best value. T-80s are being upgraded to a good T-80BVM standard as well, while the new T-90M Proryv tanks are also pretty modern. A T-72B3 may not be the equal of a Leopard 2A7V, or an M1A2C, but it's good enough, and there are thousands of them backed by massive volumes of quality Russian artillery and SAMs up against the frankly pathetic NATO defenses in Europe, so there was no need to spend too much on getting a next-gen tank of untested design.
 
Almost all of these examples you cite are from awful Arab militaries getting trashed by better-trained and better-led armies. We never did see the Warsaw Pact use its best against the West, thankfully.

Russian tanks have had fire control systems for a very long time. Even the T-72A had an electronic one. The T-72B improved this and the stabilizer.



Few T-14s have been made, and the Russian army doesn't seem interested in many more. This is partly due to budgetary issues - it's expensive to make so many new tanks, and for under $1 million a tank they can just modernize their T-72Bs to a T-72B3 model 2016 standard, or even a T-72B3M, and they already have thousands of those, so upgrades are by far the best value. T-80s are being upgraded to a good T-80BVM standard as well, while the new T-90M Proryv tanks are also pretty modern. A T-72B3 may not be the equal of a Leopard 2A7V, or an M1A2C, but it's good enough, and there are thousands of them backed by massive volumes of quality Russian artillery and SAMs up against the frankly pathetic NATO defenses in Europe, so there was no need to spend too much on getting a next-gen tank of untested design.

This there's no real scenario where T-72s will be going up against USA en masse.

Not a lot wrong with Russian artillery, missiles and anti tank RPGs.

Good enough if you want to beat up ex Soviet republics.
 
This there's no real scenario where T-72s will be going up against USA en masse.

Not a lot wrong with Russian artillery, missiles and anti tank RPGs.

Good enough if you want to beat up ex Soviet republics.

As I said before to you... when the thousands of Warsaw Pact tanks would invade West-Germany in the late 70ies early 80ies, NATO soldiers there were expected to be killed en masse unless tactical nukes or bigger would stop the invasion.
At least that was told to me when I served during my conscription period in '78-'79 in the Northern plains of West-Germany, whereby my unit had just one purpose: to slow down the tanks marching in.
I even got lessons on the Warsaw Pact structure of the their army build up including how that functioned against defending NATO units.
 
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As I said before to you... when the thousands of Warsaw Pact tanks would invade West-Germany in the late 70ies early 80ies, NATO soldiers there were expected to be killed en masse unless tactical nukes or bigger would stop the invasion.
At least that was told to me when I served during my conscription period in '78-'79 in the Northern plains of West-Germany, whereby my unit had just one purpose: to slow down the tanks marching in.
I even got lessons on the Warsaw Pact structure of the their army build up including how that functioned against defending NATO units.

If Soviets wouldn't invade because of nukes they wasted a lot if time building all those tanks.

I don't think NATO had any real plan to invade USSR.
 
If Soviets wouldn't invade because of nukes they wasted a lot if time building all those tanks.

I don't understand you

If Soviets would invade they just would invade
That there would guaranteed come Big Nukes to Warsaw Pact homeland would be completely unclear during such hostilities... because such decisions involve many more factors on another chessboard.
And tactical nukes are rather small in area effect and more suited to be part of slowing down an invading army and giving a proportional response.
Do mind that those tactical nukes to slow down a convential army would happen on West-German soil killing as well West-German citizens.
And going from convential to tactical nuclear to big nuclear is a real escalation.
 
I don't understand you

If Soviets would invade they just would invade
That there would guaranteed come Big Nukes to Warsaw Pact homeland would be completely unclear during such hostilities... because such decisions involve many more factors on another chessboard.
And tactical nukes are rather small in area effect and more suited to be part of slowing down an invading army and giving a proportional response.
Do mind that those tactical nukes to slow down a convential army would happen on West-German soil killing as well West-German citizens.
And going from convential to tactical nuclear to big nuclear is a real escalation.

The Soviets weren't willing to risk an invasion due to nukes and their tanks not that good on the defense.

They spent a lot of resources for a war they didn't want to fight and for an invasion that would never come.
 
They spent a lot of resources for a war because they didn't want to fight it. And invasion didn't come in part because of it too.
 
The Soviets weren't willing to risk an invasion due to nukes and their tanks not that good on the defense.

They spent a lot of resources for a war they didn't want to fight and for an invasion that would never come.

They spent a lot of resources for a war because they didn't want to fight it. And invasion didn't come in part because of it too.

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Spoiler :
"If you want peace, prepare for war".
 
They spent a lot of resources for a war because they didn't want to fight it. And invasion didn't come in part because of it too.

No one was gonna invade once they had nukes (or even before). They could have built half of the tanks and used the saved resources on something else (housing, better nuclear plants, food, consumer goods etc).
 
David Glantz mentioned it in his books. USSR was shocked by WW2 experience so much that it took massive efforts to avoid future war at all costs.
Sputnik and first space flight were also products of these efforts.
 
They spent a lot of resources for a war because they didn't want to fight it. And invasion didn't come in part because of it too.

Theres spending money on defence
Then theres bankrupting and imploding your economy because you went overboard.
 
It's a myth that USSR collapsed because of too high military spendings. There are countries which have it much higher and continue to exist. Including USSR itself in 50-60s
 
USSR collapsed because the leadership gave up, was my impression.

Not unlike the "velvet divorce" of czechoslovakia into two countries even though the population wanted to stay together.
 
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