WH Mod Expansion Discussion

[Mr. Do]

Okay, we've said in the main WH Mod thread that we'll leave it a bit longer before we start messing with Embryodead's masterpiece, but it seems that many people don't wait to keep waiting and waiting, so I thought I'd finally get the ball rolling. As always, if ED comes back and states his intentions I will immediately bow to them, or if he wants me to continue then I shall do so at his request. But either way, we will get a new mod going sooner or later!

Assuming no-one has a problem with me doing this, I'll just state the initial goal: to add all of the new available content to improve the accuracy and gameplay of the mod, while staying true to ED's vision.

Mostly I will just be adding the myriad of units produced by aaglo and others in the last few months. I'll start with a list of the new units that will be in the mod, and if anyone would like any of the others added let me know. Italicised units means new graphics, while bolded units were in the 2.03 beta that most will not have already...
Ushabti (Khemri)
Skeleton Archer (K, Lahmia)
Steam Tiger (A ship for Cathay)
Elven Boat (High Elves, Dark Elves)
Slave Warrior (Egyptian-styled peasant variant for K, L)
Chaos Dwarf Warrior (Kinboat's version of the stunties, which will be the first Chaos Dwarf unit)
CD Infantry (aaglo's)
Hobgoblin Archer (CD)
Bull Centaur (CD)
CD Blunderbuss (CD)
Whirlwind (CD)
Earthshaker Cannon (CD)
Spear chucka (CD, Orcs, Goblins)
Sneaky Gitz (Stealth attack unit for CD, but the stealth targets will be limited)
CD Sorceror/ Lord (CD)
Dwarvern Bolt Thrower (Dwarfs)
Lava Elemental (CD, available with summoning)
Hobgoblin Wolf Scout (Mounted archer unit for CD, avaialble with military training)
Hobgoblin Wolf Rider (Chivalry~CD)
Hellcannon (CD and Chaos)
Slave Galley (Early CD ship with bonus transport capacity. Uses aaglo's Minoan ship graphic, almost solely cos it has a bull on the sail )
Battle Barge (CD)
Great Leveller (CD)
Man-at-arms (Italian Foot Knight unit, it'll be for the Bretonnians, similar to the Ungol Soldier unit)
Saurus Gunner (Slann)
Screaming Skull Catapult (K, L)
Bone Giant (K)
Rock Lobber (Orcs, Goblins)
Skeleton Spearman (Sylvanian version)
Skeleton Spearman (Lahmian and Khemrian version)
Wight Infantry (L, Sy)
Tomb Guard (K)
Undead Chariot (K)
Salamander (Slann)
Dryad (Wood Elves)
Treeman (WE)
Dwarf Archer (Boo! For dwarfs, of course)
Dwarf Ranger (Will be an upgrade for the Dwarf Archer)
Mining Attack Squad (An upgrade for Dwarf miners when the engineer unit comes around)
Peasant Archer (Bretonnia)
Sorceress/ Lord (DE)
Arch/Mage (HE)
Wood Elf Mage/Lord (WE)
Great Taurus (CD)
Fell Bat (Sy)
Black Orc Infantry (Current graphic will be changed to the warrior unit)
Halfling (Unit will probably be changed to a no-upkeep archer unit)
Ironbreaker
Longbeard
Black Guard
Phoenix Guard
Liche Priest
Necromancer Lord
Orc Spearman
Orc Warrior
Reiksguard (Legion of the Wall unit)
Greatsword (Landsknecht)
Ogre Bull (DOW unit available to all who have a new Ogre Resource, except Bretonnians cos they don't use DOW)
Tomb Swarm (K)
Boar Boy (Orcs and goblins)
The forgotten:
Skaven Clanrat (Barbarians)
Rat Ogre (Barbarians)
Boar Chariot (Lower attack value but higher defence for the orcs and goblins)
Black Knight (Wight Cavalry)
Ghost Warrior (spirit hosts of Sylvania)
Night goblin fanatic (Goblins)
Pegasus knight (Bretonnians, probably)
Unicorn knight (Amazons, maybe Wood Elves?)

So, any thoughts there?

If anyone wants to vounteer to help I have some extremely menial tasks that'd need to be taken care of

 

[drzoidberg]

I'd say it's pretty solid. But messing around with the Tech tree is going to be a major headache. How about using LizardmenRules Idea as Skaven as barbarians?

 

[Mr. Do]

Good idea. I had actually changed them to Beastmen and Giant Spiders (Another graphic change I forgot to mention anyway) for my mod, but the Skaven deserve to be there

The major headache will be messing with the upgrade chain rather than the tech tree though.

 

[aaglo]

Hey! Cool!

How about adding also:
Tuskgor chariot (Chaos)
Boar chariot (Orcs)
Tomb swarm (Khemri)
Centigor (Chaos)
Ungor (Chaos)
Bestigor (Chaos)
Wight Cavalry (Sylvania)
Undead Halberdier (made to look like sylvanian warriors?)
Ghost Warrior (spirit hosts of Sylvania)
Night goblin fanatic (Goblins)
Pegasus knight (kinboats, Bretonnians)
Goblin hewer (Dwarfs, or something that is made from a certain building/wonder)
Unicorn knight (Amazons)

....
and possibly
Stone elemental (according to White Dwarf, stone elementals were sort of familiars - perhaps for chaos?)
Great Unclean one (chaos, altough it doesn't look much like the original thing )

 

[aaglo]

Another thing: Flavors.

No, I wouldn't start messing with flavors into tech tree and buildings - I just thought to spice up the AI diplomacy (I think that it does that too - no?)

There are the oldwolders.
Add in:
Chaos
Greenskins
Elves
Dark-elves
Dwarfs
Undead

Well, you propably know better how all those react to each other, like:
- dark elves hate everyone (ratio to everyone = 0)?
- chaos hates almost everyone (greenskins & darkelves better, others less)
- undead are pretty indifferent with everyone (50?)
- ect...

I fiddled with them a bit, and tested a game - but I'm not sure if the flavors really affected the diplomacy. I played as orcs (greenskins), and Reikland (oldworlders), High-elves (elves) and dwarfs (duh!) were all the time annoyed with me. Until I invaded reikland

Has anyone else tested with the flavours & diplomacy? (that could help to avoid some of the impropabilities such as alliances between dark & high elves)?

 

[Mr. Do]

Not sure about all those Beasts of Chaos units... I already think the one beastman unit in the game is out of place among all the barbarian hordes. I can't think of a way to add them satisfactorily without a whole boC civ (In my own mod, I've moved the Herdstone to a new tech called "Beastherds",and it produces a Beastman unit every 12 turns).

Wight Cavalry will replace the Black Knight graphic also, yes. Undead Halberdier is another unit I can't think of a spot for, especially given the tech tree. I'll think about the Ghost Warrior, maybe it could be a moderate strength unit with all terrain as roads. I think the fanatic could go in as well, but I've heard that land-based explosive units don't work as they should (I've never actually got up to the point where you can use units like the explosive sheep!). No reason not to though!

I'm really unsure about the Pegasus Knight... it just doesn't look Bretonnian. Which reminds me, I've moved around a lot of the Knight graphics for the Bretonnians, so that for example the Knights Errant look like proper knights instead of mere horsemen. However, I intend to be democratic and if others want the pegasus knight graphic unit then I'll put it in. It'd be nice in Kinboat made the knightly version he hinted at also, though. There is only one Goblin Hewer in the entire WH world, and the dwarfs have enough artillery as it is, I can't find a spot for it really. Unicorn Knight was another unit I meant to add as well, I'm tempted to put it in for Wood Elves too, give 'em a bit more oomph.

Edit: Flavours sound interesting, but I'm not sure they do anything either! When you play as a Chaos government all the monarchies start off annoyed with you anyway. I think this is as far as influencing the AI's attitudes can go. Really I don't mind seeing bizarre alliances like High and Dark Elves fighting on the same side, you just got to think of some fluffy reason for it like the Witch King decides to acknowledge the Phoenix King, but only until he's ready to make his own move for the throne...

 

[Scytale]

I'm glad to see things are moving up! I have a few sugestions too:
- concerning diplomacy I think we should disable the trading comm option or make it available much later in the game. Why? Because this would give flavour to the game, make it feel more like in the medieval times when you had to send your men to the far reaches of the known land to make contact with another king. I have experimented with it and it works very well - the alliance sistem is more reginal and WW2 doesn't happen so often .

- we should also add a new resource: dragons. Also make it a rare resource. I did this for my version of the game because I felt so frustrated when the AI, after descovering the tech, started using only dragons to make war and it didn't use all the fine units of the last age. At first it was fun but then it got boring. So make a resource and let the AI deserve those dragons !

Last sugestion : why not give that unicorn rider to the wood elves...they don't have enough units and they could use a cavalry unit. (you may disregard my last sugestion, it's just something that I did in my version of the game)
EDIT: Mr. Do, I saw your sugestion about the unicorn knight after I posted this, I'm glad someone else thought about it too .
Of course I want the Pegasus Knight in the game . I already included them and I think they look nice, even if not really bretonian.

What do you think?

 

[Mr. Do]

I can't make dragons a rare resource, becuse I know that would speicifically go against the wishes of ED (That all races have access to them with the same tech, else the few nations that can build them would be able to overpower the whole world easily). Personally I would like to do something like that, but I can't.

I think removing the comm trading option from Diplomacy would be good. One thing I did with my game that I also really liked how it worked was only allowing a few nations access to the trade embargo option (Ulthuan, Westerland, Tilea, Araby, Nippon). Unfortunately this also meant I had to take away Warrior Code as a free tech for the High Elves, so that they could have the unresearchable tech that would lead to "economic sanctions". So I probably won't put that in, unless others really want it. I just hate having a bazillion trade embargoes going on in the third age really, it's horrible!

Edit: anyone want any of these new units in as well? They don't need to go in for the sake of it, but maybe if they're wanted...
Celtic Warrior
Woodsman Medieval Indian Swordsman Qin Soldier

Personally I think the Woodsman would make a great Wood elf unit, but as what? The M.I.F should perhaps go in as a holy warrior replacement, and the Qin solider looks nice, someone think of a place for it

 

[Scytale]

I'm sorry to hear that about the dragons. I did't know about ED's ideea. The thing is, before I introduced the "dragons" resource in the game I tried to make them more expensive but that didn't work either - the AI was building dragons no matter how many turns it took and still not using cheaper but weaker units.

 

[Mr. Do]

It's a fact of Civ, yes. It is common for the AI to try building units and wonders that it won't complete before the game's time limit runs out! Crazy but that's how the game works.

 

[Scytale]

The Qin Soldier is very good and I would like to see it as a Cathay unit. Also the woodsman might be very good for the wood elves, the celtic warrior for the Albion and the Indian swordsman for the Ind. They are all very good units and may replace some old graphics in the mod.

We could use the woodsman for adding a Wood elf Waywatcher into the game.
I don't know about the indian swordsman thogh...maybe replace the swordsman unit in the first era for the Ind, Araby and all other civs that use that graphic?
That Celtic warrior could be used for the Albionese Foot Knight - but this is just a thought

 

[LMR]

If enough skaven are made, would you put it in as a race? i know that kinboat's playing around with a LH, and i've made two skaven so far, and will try to do more soon (if my homework stops piling up )

we at the skaven development thread have had some really good ideas to make a unique and interesting race that will be extremely fun and challenging to play.

 

[Scytale]

If enough skaven are made, would you put it in as a race? i know that kinboat's playing around with a LH, and i've made two skaven so far, and will try to do more soon (if my homework stops piling up )

we at the skaven development thread have had some really good ideas to make a unique and interesting race that will be extremely fun and challenging to play.

I've followed the progress on your thread and I would certainly like to see the skaven into the new expansion! I think Kinboat will come up with some skaven units soon ... just check out the Wheel of Time thread and you'll understand what I'm talking about .

 

[CyberChrist]

Undead Halberdier is another unit I can't think of a spot for, especially given the tech tree.

Unless it goes against the WH army setup then replacing the Blade for the Khemri that comes with Polearms seems fitting. Blades would still be used for Ind.
In fact I'd like to see more of the current 'living' units replaced with undead ones - at least for the appropriate races like Khemri, Lhamia and Sylvania. Upgrading a Peasant to some skeleton would appeal to me

Edit: Flavours sound interesting, but I'm not sure they do anything either! When you play as a Chaos government all the monarchies start off annoyed with you anyway.

Flavors doesn't affect relations between races, it only 'inspires' the AI to prefer/choose which available techs/buildings to research/build over other techs/buildings that are also available.

 

[aaglo]

Not sure about all those Beasts of Chaos units... I already think the one beastman unit in the game is out of place among all the barbarian hordes. I can't think of a way to add them satisfactorily without a whole boC civ (In my own mod, I've moved the Herdstone to a new tech called "Beastherds",and it produces a Beastman unit every 12 turns).

Well, how about making a rare strategic resource (Beastmen); ungors, bestigors, tuskgors and centigors could then be resource-related units (afterall, chaos cannot build halflings )

Undead Halberdier is another unit I can't think of a spot for, especially given the tech tree.

Undead halberdier could be available in the 2nd age - in the pikes -tech?

I think the fanatic could go in as well, but I've heard that land-based explosive units don't work as they should (I've never actually got up to the point where you can use units like the explosive sheep!). No reason not to though!

Someone had a cool idea (not to use it as a oneshot-weapon): give it a relatively high attack (not sure about defence), but only one hp (-2 hp). That would bring out the randomness of the attack

 

[LMR]

i think you're right scytale!! that skaven looks great! better than mine..

 

[drzoidberg]

Unless it goes against the WH army setup then replacing the Blade for the Khemri that comes with Polearms seems fitting. Blades would still be used for Ind.
In fact I'd like to see more of the current 'living' units replaced with undead ones - at least for the appropriate races like Khemri, Lhamia and Sylvania. Upgrading a Peasant to some skeleton would appeal to me

We had this discussion in the WH MOD thread, (before the 2.0 upgrade around page 50) and that is why Khemri has human troops in the first age. Khemri starts off by having no undead troops at all, and the skills of raising the dead are aquired over time. Setra doesn't even awake until, what's her face, the Lhamian queen decides to wake up all undead in Khemri. Why I'm not sure. What I'm saying is that it was not out of lack of units that ED chose to have human troops for Khemri initialy.

 

[aaglo]

About the undead units, this is What Embryodead said in January 25th, 2005:
With alll the new units that aaglo has made, the whole undead unit tree will be redone obviously. The idea of human faction turning into undead will remain, but the human period will be very short, like half of the first era.

Here's the post (in the warhammer fantasy graphics preview thread):
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2507825&postcount=25

I guess that something similar can be applied to other undead races (those being sylvania and lahmia)

 

[aaglo]

Flavors doesn't affect relations between races, it only 'inspires' the AI to prefer/choose which available techs/buildings to research/build over other techs/buildings that are also available.

Damn - well, I always learn something new here about civ3-game-engine

I think also, that the flavours cannot be used to flavorize techs. When you give a tech a flavour, all the civs without that flavour would require the maximum time to research it

 

[drzoidberg]

About the undead units, this is What Embryodead said in January 25th, 2005:
With alll the new units that aaglo has made, the whole undead unit tree will be redone obviously. The idea of human faction turning into undead will remain, but the human period will be very short, like half of the first era.

I guess that something similar can be applied to other undead races (those being sylvania and lahmia)

If I remember my Warhammer correctly none of the undead CIVs are ever actually completely undead, (wouldn't be many corpses to rise if that was the case). In all three the undead leaders are worhiped like gods by humans, (Vampires in Lhamia and Sylvania and mummies in Khemri). The notion of having an all undead state, (with no humans kept alive) was only a project of the Lhamian Necrarch Wsoran studying the books of Nagash. Since Wsoran was murdered before the project was realized nothing came of it. I'm guessing that it is this ED has used when modelling the undead state.