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Whales whats the point?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by bakshi, Feb 10, 2010.

  1. bakshi

    bakshi Prince

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    Like the title says whats the point of whales? It takes to long to get for it to become useful. What I'm saying is have you ever been in a game where you say yippy I get to start next to some whales.
     
  2. Wlauzon

    Wlauzon Prince

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    Whales are worthless. They also go obsolete too soon.
     
  3. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Anybody got a link to the old "whales as a military resource" thread? :)
     
  4. Bostock

    Bostock King

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    Whales are sometimes useful in isolation, since you probably will be beelining optics, but, at the same time, if you built Colossus, which is often good in isolation, you may not be beelining Astronomy... so it can be a while from there to Combustion.

    The extra point (two with a marketplace... at a time when marketplaces are less of a stupid build than before since your cities have had time to grow) comes at a time when HR units are starting to cost more and more hammers per unit, or maybe you're beelining Constitution and you soon won't even be in HR at all. So I think the happiness benefit is still relevant.

    Like most obsoletings, there is a hidden message in the obsoleting at combustion: build a navy and snag some other happiness resources with it!
     
  5. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    Extra happiness can't be too bad.
     
  6. @nthony

    @nthony Chieftain

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    I thought this might be a reference to Wales and I was going to agree! D'oh! :)
     
  7. TheDS

    TheDS Regular Riot

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    What, you don't think the political message is important? "Whales are useless, so why bother killing them?" Just like the political message with nuclear plants. "Nuclear power is useless, why have it?"
     
  8. jdp29

    jdp29 Chieftain

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    I find they are usually too far out from the shore to be of any use. It seems to be very rare when they are near enough to the shore to be used as a city resource. I'm certain it happens, but it seems rare on my games.

    That said, I wouldn't beeline optics on purpose to harvest whales, but I won't begrudge a whale if I can use it.
     
  9. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    They're not bad, but they sure aren't good.
     
  10. fenrus

    fenrus Chieftain

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    I once saw a whale in the ocean and the only way to work it within a BFC is if you built your city on a nearby mountain. I wondered if that was an error in the map generation.
     
  11. bestsss

    bestsss Emperor

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    ...because foreign overseas trade routes are terrible.

    Colossus is a joke compared to them.
     
  12. bestbrian

    bestbrian Just this guy, ya know?

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    Yeah, in Civ IV they nerfed Whales. I remember in II when they were an Uber-Resource; probably one of the best. Now, they're "meh", at best. Some mods have tried to alter this a little bit. I know that the Wolf-based mods have a Trafalgar Square Wonder that is a combination late-game Colossus and Naval HE, that also grants additional xp to naval units; very potent on water maps, and half-price with Whale. Outside of that, Whale blows (especially if you already have Ollies).
     
  13. Kansalaispoliis

    Kansalaispoliis Chieftain

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    I'm glad to have whales in a BFC. It's a nice bonus for the otherwise worthless sea tile. And the happiness is a plus.

    Though that's not to say I wouldn't rather have something else but whales are better than nothing!
     
  14. smackthewise

    smackthewise Prince

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    I think they should be added to Sids Sushi!!!!!. I WANT FRESH WHALE SUSHI!
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    They're not a great luxury but it's better to have them than nothing at all, especially if you have other market resources already.

    I agree that foreign trade is better than colossus, and in the context of needing caravels to find people you'd probably not want to delay astro.

    However colossus is still a helpful wonder in that scenario if you have copper since it is not expensive and you are likely not sacrificing city sites or military survival to secure it. Getting to the tech that obsoletes it faster might be its best function in that case :lol:.

    But it's definitely not a trash wonder. The early returns from colossus coast are significant. You can easily be in end-game civics by the time a non-riverside cottage would overtake it.
     
  16. fenrus

    fenrus Chieftain

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    if anything, you still get some GP points from the Colossus. A Great Merchant can be used to bulb Civil Service. 250 Hammers, half of that with Copper means it's about the same cost as a Courthouse to build. Definitely reasonable option if you Oracle'd Metal Casting.
     
  17. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    ...how do you justify that? :crazyeye:
     
  18. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    Trafalgar square was very hammer heavy for its point in the game. IIRC it only boosted naval production, it didn't double it, and the XP just pushed them up a level after Drydock. It was very good but not over powered or necessary unless you where on a water heavy map where powerful navies where not optional.
     
  19. Bostock

    Bostock King

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    Time to be my own devil's advocate. I think the real trouble with whales is something nobody in the thread yet has mentioned: they're an arctic/antarctic resource. Generally when you're bothering to settle down/up in that region at all, it's for one of those silly cities that picks up a fish with its right leg, a crab with its left leg, and a silver with its hat (if you didn't just end up settling the silver outright due to the impossibility of working it reasonably soon and the advantage of not having to worker-improve the tile). The last thing you want is a silly whale square getting in the way of those precious food-rich fish and crabs!

    But it's sometimes reasonable to pick up whales with a second border pop, and for some reason polar islands seem to have a better suite to round out the whales on average.

    bestsss: OK, OK. How's this: you beelined Optics for caravels so fast that you don't need to beeline Combustion for a while to maintain a naval advantage? Can we agree on that?
     
  20. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Second border pop is the thing. The whales more often than not seem to be 2 off the coast, which means you can't work the tile for the cash, and it's not an exciting proposition to settle a junk city to "pick up the resource" because it's going to be ages before you get it. Those kind of cities often don't have hammers to spare to build culture buildings either.
     

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